1. [2018/06/22]
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Fights BB3s remain the most frustrating mechanic in this game

Discussion in 'Feedback & Suggestions' started by Ryouhi, Jul 23, 2018.

  1. Ryouhi

    Ryouhi Well-Known Member

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    There have been many a thread and discussion on the topic of BB3s, some arguing they are to strong, others arguing you just need to git gud.

    For me, they are simply the mechanic that always makes me stop playing the game for the day, because my streak just got ruined by an attack i couldn't defend against.

    Especially once the streak 15+ bonus buffs make the AI stronger, they quickly become instant kills no matter what you do, while your own BB3s barely scratch them.

    So i've come with a suggestion on how BB3s may alternatively work, to make them more of an actual cool finisher move, than an instant-win button for the AI.

    My suggestion would rework the damage all BB3s do from a flat amount of damage dependend on your Atk rating, to do percentage health damage instead - meaning they will always drain the same amount of percent of health and do not scale with a fighters damage stat.

    This would mean they remain a strong tool in the players arsenal as enemy health scales more and more, while the AI not being able to instantly kill one of your fighters if it so desires.


    This is just one idea i had for moving BB3s away from being stuck between being barely useful for players while being instantkills the other way around and it has it's own problems of course.

    However, they are probably the most frequent reason as to why i will put the game down for the rest of a day, because it feels incrdibly frustrating losing so much progress in your streaks to an attack you can do nothing against. There is a few other attacks/mechanics that solicit the same reaction from me, but that's for another topic.

    Maybe you guys have some ideas how we could balance BB3s too though and i'd love to here them!
     
    #1 Ryouhi, Jul 23, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2018
  2. Zuzuska

    Zuzuska Active Member

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    I like the idea, but one issue would be that a large portion of the difficulty maintaining high streaks is taken away. We would have to come up with another method to create difficulty.
    High streaks would become incredibly easy with people simply building blockbuster meter gain, and spamming their % HP damage against enemies. I know for a FACT that my Heavy Reign would become absolutely deadly with this idea. Defense would become irrelevant and BB3s would be an actual MUST HAVE for any fighter due to it's utility in High HP % streaks.

    Perhaps it could deal more damage based on the % health remaining?
    Enemy 100% HP = 50% ATK based damage,
    50% HP = 100% ATK based damage,
    25% HP = 125% ATK based damage.
    I'm thinking sort of an Execution type deal? The enemy would have to whittle your health down, and then use a BB3 to ensure your death. This way, at high streaks it's still a pretty large threat for you at 100% health, since their atk is boosted. However, you also have more of a chance to survive and fight onwards; until you get BB3ed again for execution.
     
    #2 Zuzuska, Jul 23, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2018
  3. Beldr447

    Beldr447 Active Member

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    But Ai is programmed to use BB3 to punish you, they don't just instantly use it
     
  4. Zuzuska

    Zuzuska Active Member

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    I have had times where the AI tags in and immediately uses it. It's incredibly rare, but it happens on occasion :x
     
  5. Cellsai

    Cellsai Oh Sai
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    The problem with this is that generally the only time I ever get hit by a BB3 is after I have been wailing on an enemy for a long time already, meaning they're probably going to have a supercharged BB3 ready to go 90% of the time.
     
  6. TonyPartridge30

    TonyPartridge30 Well-Known Member

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    Ever since the update, BB3s have been more annoying than ever. Before they were something to worry about if you made a mistake and gave the enemy an opening. Now the enemy will throw it out regardless of what you do. The whole "enemy will never use BB3 if you are aggressive" doesn't really work because enemy AI can just block, so you can't attack them back because they'll use it when you hit their guard, and now you can't block for too long or they'll use it anyway.

    This update to BB3 usage puts too much value into characters and moves that manage BB usage. I feel like the update to how the enemy AI uses BB3s combined with their increased overall difficulty makes BB3s too much a guaranteed loss. Not only does the AI try to fake you into attacking before an opening is made, it also punishes you for being patient and waiting for a true opening. So you lose either way. It's asinine. BB3s are way too strong for a guaranteed hit; they're ability to one shot makes me want to put the game down until the next update to their mechanics comes around. Personally I've always felt that a guaranteed hitter shouldn't do the most damage of any move.
     
    Ryouhi, xcapibara, Zuzuska and 3 others like this.
  7. xcapibara

    xcapibara Active Member

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    So, this just happened against a 2x fs team: about to kill an opponent in the corner the combo falls just short of it but not short of charging the ai bb3; instakill bb3 against a full health char, in comes my gold No Egrets with 40% crit rate for meter control, ai tags in another char and immediately unleashes bb3 before i can do anything; instakill... They should just remove the unblockable property of these bb’s, make them like regular bb’s, or at least make it so that only one bb3 of any of the 3 chars in play is usable per match.
     
  8. Zuzuska

    Zuzuska Active Member

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    Ah, no I meant HP remaining on the enemy it's used on. For example: if the target has high health, BB3s will do less damage to them.
    100% HP = 50% ATK based damage,
    50% HP = 100% ATK based damage,
    25% HP = 125% ATK based damage.

    Another idea could also be that a fighter with low hp deals less damage in general? Sort of a Fatigue kind of mechanic.

    Based on my experiences in the current update, I would agree to say that BB3s have become a bit TOO overbearing. It made fighters that manage BB meter leagues more important than simple damage ones. It does prioritize bringing more fully capable teams, but I don't believe that this is the correct method to enforce that idea.
     
  9. TonyPartridge30

    TonyPartridge30 Well-Known Member

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    Part of the update notes said that enemy AI will never buffer up a BB3 on get-up or when being hit. Does "get-up" refer to when the player is getting up or the AI? If it's not referring to when the player is getting up, it should be changed to include that. When enemy AI buffer BB3s at times when the player is literally unable to do anything about it (on get-up or on automated tag-in after a KO), it's feels really unfair. We already have to deal with increased frequency. If that means that players lose the ability to buffer on get-up or tag-in, so be it.

    I hope BB3s get overhauled sooner rather than later. I feel like if they had just increased AI difficulty without changed BB3 behavior, things would be much more manageable, because you'd still have the AI trying to bait you into attacking and then be able to punish you for it.
     
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  10. Zuzuska

    Zuzuska Active Member

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    ^ and I'd add that Squigly is still an absolute nightmare for me. Especially with the AI update, she's incredibly frustrating with her crouch attack spam and grabbing. There's barely any time to punish her, and she wastes huge amounts of match time forcing you to wait for an opening. She also gradually builds BB3 as she continuously harasses you from afar.
     
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  11. Ryouhi

    Ryouhi Well-Known Member

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    I haven't had enemies use tooo many BB3s on me for now, but they all seemed completely "unprovoked" or out of nowhere so to speak.
    They just feel worse to face off against than ever, as the AI seemingly will punish you with them as it sees fit.

    While Meter Drain and Blockbuster blocks are nice and all, they feel much, much too scarce as a true "countermeasure" for how powerful BB3s are in the hands of the AI.


    The only time i even dare attack her is if she uses her dash attack + the push away attack after

    For every other combo she uses, it seems she can simply add a launcher (lets her block too quickly, also attack is really fats so she can hit you if you try to attack) or trip (makes it impossible to punish a blocked combo as it pushes you away).

    Her charge attack seems unpunishable as well, as their seems to be barely any recovery frames after the attack frames.

    She's really uncomfortable to fight against, i agree.
     
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  12. TonyPartridge30

    TonyPartridge30 Well-Known Member

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    Just want to say that this update makes the Accursed Experiments node with Harlequin+Surgeon General+Untouchable and the BB-related modifiers complete and total BS. It's turned into a BB3-spam fest.

    I get the desire to strike a balance so things aren't too easy, but for me the BB3 behavior changes have made things too frustrating. The XP grind and RNG already keep progress from happening too fast, but now Accursed Experiments in general is just a hassle. It feels unfair. I would have liked to see what this update would've been like with just the increased AI difficulty instead of that plus the trigger-happy BB3 behavior.
     
    #12 TonyPartridge30, Aug 15, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2018
  13. Beldr447

    Beldr447 Active Member

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    For that fight just use light or dark fighters and you won't trigger the bb gain
     
  14. Takio

    Takio Active Member

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    Typically in RPGs attacks that completely ignore a defense mechanic are also low damage. For example in a game that has Armor as a form of second hp bar there are attacks that can hit the regular HP directly. But these attacks have overall a lower damage than the usual attacks, making them only really viable against opponents that can have armor.

    For an attack that is a guaranteed hit BB3s deal way too much. Having attacks that ignore block isn't inherently a bad idea but how they are handled here feels like bad game design. They are too skewed toward the AI especially with the increased stats on high pf streaks. Having BB3s be high damage isn't inherently a bad idea, but them being unblockable as well is.

    And we already have attacks that fit the usual design of such attacks: command grabs. of course not everyone has those so we'd need to make a couple of existing BBs and maybe specials to unblockables, but maybe similar to grabs where they don't hit when you're too far away.

    BB's that I think would fit that would be Laryngectomy and Widow's Peak. you need to be close enough to hit and you can't really combo off of those.

    Like that BB3s actually have to be used at an appropriate moment so that they can't be blocked and people still have attacks that ignore block when used properly.
     
    #14 Takio, Aug 22, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2018
    Ryouhi likes this.
  15. TonyPartridge30

    TonyPartridge30 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this. BB3s deal too much damage for a guaranteed hit, so much so that high level fights become dependent on beating an opponent before their BB3 meter is filled. It's like a second timer.
    I would love to see BB3s not be so universally effective. Giving them a range in which their effective (grabby BB3s only work when you're right next to the opponent, triggering BB3s too early cancels them, etc) would make them much more balanced as they are now. Or make them evade-able. Evading is tough to pull off as a player; AI are much better at evading, so there is potential here to emphasize evade as a high-skill technique.
     
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  16. That nub

    That nub Member

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    As a BB3 spammer i actually agree with this.
    Even though theres meter block,wither etc still its its frustrating when at the last second u get bb3ed

    Maybe increase the dmg needed? or decrease the dmg?
     
  17. xcapibara

    xcapibara Active Member

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    Or just limit it’s use to once per fight

    That way you still get the dread but not the spam
     
  18. fanghoul

    fanghoul Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to be the odd man out and say I can't remember the last time I was killed by a BB3. Not that it doesn't happen, but it's infrequent enough that I really don't have much impression of it happening at all. Maybe because even before the change I tended to do all my high level prize fights with Surgeon General and Trauma Center, with each character having a way to decrease meter?

    I'm just trying to contribute that BB3's being a problem may not be a universal experience, not to discount other people's perceptions and experiences, or that this isn't something that might need to be addressed. I certainly want the game to flourish, and don't want people having a frustrating and bad experience to be something that holds the game back.
     
  19. Beldr447

    Beldr447 Active Member

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    After adapting a little, I managed to get streaks of 27 without losing to bb3, and the times I lose are usually by my own mistakes
     
  20. Ryouhi

    Ryouhi Well-Known Member

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    I hate to revive this thread again, but i've gotten a little frustrated over this again, so anyways.

    BB3s have become more managable nowadays thanks to more abundant meter control abilities, especially wither being a godsend.

    However, when you don't have one available it can still be hard to deal with.
    One tip the game shows in the loading screens is to change out to another fighter when the enemies BB3 is charged and "to let them take one for the team" i think it says.

    My issue with this is, that this never really works for me at all.
    Sometimes i even bring my Dead of Winter that would actually get an advantage for being killed by a BB3, but whenever i switch to a fighter i want to "sacrifice", the AI never ever uses their fully charged BB3, even when i block multiple full combos of theirs.

    But the second i even dare to block an attack with my carry again, it's instant BB3 time.

    ---

    I'd personally like if BB3s were a little more predictable. Maybe make the enemy BB3 flash red shortly before they want to use it or something so i actually *can* switch out to another fighter to tank the hits.
     
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