1. [2018/06/22]
    By using our forums, and our in-game services, you agree to be bound by our Privacy Policy found here:
    skullgirlsmobile.com/privacy
    Dismiss Notice

Fights Buffing Armor Break

Discussion in 'Feedback & Suggestions' started by Reshiram18, May 23, 2019.

  1. Reshiram18

    Reshiram18 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2018
    Messages:
    266
    Likes Received:
    305
    With the massive rise in armor in the overall gameplay of SGM recently, counters to armor have become very important. However, one of those counters has fallen behind the rest of the pack. That would be Armor Break. Armor Break works fine in its current form against fixed stacks of armor, such as the Darknut catalyst or the Stone Skin modifier. However it struggles to be effective against the more annoying armor sources in the game, such as Armor Rating, Frost Armor, or High Tides. The main problem with Armor Break as an armor counter is that it gets removed when a new stack of Armor is applied to the opponent. With my proposal I believe this fundamental problem can be solved and thus make Armor Break an actually viable counter to armor. My buff idea is simple. Armor Break will remove all current armor from the opponent as it currently does, but it will also prevent the opponent from gaining any new armor stacks during the duration of the Armor Break. With this change the Armor Break will become an additional option that can be used against armor fights so that we don't have to rely on curse or buff removers to have a surefire armor counter.
     
    moomouse, qlimax, Gerhop and 9 others like this.
  2. Pepperlunatic

    Pepperlunatic Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2017
    Messages:
    101
    Likes Received:
    104
    I’ve talked about making armor break to prevent getting armor for the duration before and i thank you for raising this issue up again. I hope devs understands that armor is a huge problem and nerf armor either directly like reducing damage reduction per stack or indirectly like we both talked about the armor break.
     
  3. Kevin Pepino

    Kevin Pepino Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2019
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    60
    I do agree overall with the change you stated, and I would also add in Cripple into this as well, given that it's not too difficult to counter either, and, like Armor Break, it doesn't stack, making it a less dangerous debuff for it.

    With these changes in mind, the situations that I can see somewhat more manageable would be the catalysts you just mentioned, plus characters such as Resonant Evil, Heavy Metal, Armed Forces, any Grudge Painwheel, etc.

    The one thing that would perhaps make this a little broken would be permanent modifiers for these, but yet again excepting a few offensive-based catalysts like say Record Breaker there aren't many cases where these fall into this situation.
     
  4. cappatacus

    cappatacus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2018
    Messages:
    384
    Likes Received:
    295
    Doublicious
    Generally Double on Chaos
    Purrfect Dark
    Rusty
    Any bleed fighter/Filia
    BMF (remember that armor break everyone complained about?)
    Headstrong
    Any Cerebella with DaF and Battle Butt
    Primed w/ Canopy Bounce and Silent Scope
    Low Combo fighters in general
    Silent Kill
    Sketchy
    Eliza - Chaos Banish, Nekhbet Break (they combo into each other, or use them on their own)
    Bio Exorcist
    Poltergust
    (Or Squigly of choice with RotD, applies curse on first hit; also has Drag N Drop)
    Buzzkill (or Painwheel of choice with Buer Thresher)

    These are the ways I've found to counter armor. Armor has never been the deciding factor on wether or not I win a battle, unless I get cocky against an RE and don't bring an immunity taunt. It's always been my own lack of preparation that has made a rift node difficult, not the modifiers. Sacrosanct was annoying, but not at all OP if you came prepared with the right fighters. Armor rating can be annoying, but not at all if you come prepared with the right fighters. Even when armor is paired with an immunity catalyst. Just bring debuff removal. Find a different angle. It's there. You don't need much - my Primed can combo Canopy Bounce into Sniper Shot. Armor can't do much about that, and she's not even an armor break or buff removal character.

    I have heard plenty of stories about a rift base having armor on way too many nodes, and I can understand being annoyed by that. Maybe to reduce frustration, repeat catalysts can only be used X amount of times in one base. This promotes diversity and creates a more interesting battle. Overall, though, I genuinely cannot understand all of the upset over armor. Maybe I've just been lucky with the bases I've come across, but I'm not sure how much I believe that. I've faced bases with Armor catalysts on at least a handful of nodes, and it hasn't stunted my progress.
     
    Jhosvi, Dusty00 and MatDestruction like this.
  5. Pepperlunatic

    Pepperlunatic Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2017
    Messages:
    101
    Likes Received:
    104

    Okay let me talk about the problem with these counters:

    1. Doublicious: It is not guaranteed so it might not proc as you wish. Also, she is natural silver which means her stats are low which makes her less optional to deal with tanks in general.
    2. Purrfect dark: Probably the best counter but taking good 10 second for a character can be annoying.
    3. Rusty, Headstrong: First, they are natural bronze so they generally have lower stats which makes them more difficult to deal with tanks. I'll talk more about bleed stuff later.
    4. BMF: Its natural silver and because of it even if it applies armor break, it is just not enough to deal with tanks in general.
    5. BoF and Battle Butt: Sure that one hit won't be reduced unless its untouchable. But the issue comes after you do that ability. You will most likely let them have 2 or more stack and deal absolutely no damage and force to just use grab until your battle butt is ready or armor expires.
    6. Primed with canopy bounce and silent scope: Same issue with Bof and battle butt. Few blockbusters that hits less are not enough.
    7. Low combo fighter in general: Looks good on paper. But that is just not true at all. Even if you use beowulf or cerebella, you will most likely end of with enemy with 2 to 3 stacks which means they don't receive any damage unless you use armor break which can be easily negated by consistent gain of armor.
    8. Silent Kill: The only downside is that proc is not always consistent. That is pretty much it.
    9. Eliza: like I said above, few skills that hits less or remove buff is not enough.
    10. Bio exorcist: Its strong on paper, but overrated. drain is not really fast enough to kill enemies quickly. The only thing actually deals damage is drag n drag and even that can proc armor which can be troublesome if fighting against RE
    11. Bleed characters: They are generally weak against high bleed resist and well developed nodes can have defenders with high bleed resist.
    12. Buer Thresher: Same issue with others above.

    If we actually consider all the problems above, the only reliable counters are purrfect dark, silent kill, and sketchy and even these aren't all that perfect. Also even if we agree that these above except the low combo fighters are counters, it is still problematic that makes most of the characters unusable in rift because armor is just too common. By at least buffing armor break, this allows nearly all characters a chance to deal with armor filled nodes.
     
    xcapibara likes this.
  6. TonyPartridge30

    TonyPartridge30 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2017
    Messages:
    623
    Likes Received:
    449
    I think the issue with Armor is less about it's counterability and more about the perception of how fights go. Yes, there are ways to counter armor, though among the ones you listed, not all of them are consistently viable and not all are easily obtainable. But even with the counters to armor being available, Armor/damage reduction itself is just a very boring and cheap-feeling way of making defense teams (especially when multiple nodes put a focus on Armor). It's not exciting to have to tackle so many fights in similar ways, or to sit back and wait for armor buffs to expire, or to watch your damage values suddenly turn into zero mid-combo. Stalling tactics, while effective, are boring. I would very much like it if alternative tactics and synergies were made just as effective and attractive as armor-based/damage reduction tactics.

    Not to mention, Catalysts were originally touted as providing a lateral difficulty shift to rifts, allowing for unique defense maps, yet the meta seems to be focusing on Armor-based modifiers, and modifiers like Armor Rating instantly make any node as tough as or tougher than the Reactive Armor/Hail Mary node below the boss node. Both of those things seem to detract from the original intent of Catalysts.

    Personally, I've always found armor to be an odd buff, because each stack grants 25% damage reduction, it stacks up to 5. There's no reason anyone should ever need 125% damage reduction; that value makes no sense. So I've always been a proponent of first lowering each armor stack to 20% damage reduction. But beyond that, with most players shooting for that 50% Defense stat cap, it becomes too easy to achieve a 100% damage reduction value in many scenarios, especially with Armor Rating and similar catalysts. I personally feel that 100% damage reduction should be more difficult to achieve, given how brokenly useful it is.
     
  7. cappatacus

    cappatacus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2018
    Messages:
    384
    Likes Received:
    295
    I get the feeling you haven't tried all of these options. Doublicious, for example, won't transfer buffs on every hit. She will, however, transfer them in a simple combo. Chaos also helps because she has a chance to unflict armor break, curse, or bleed to directly counter armor. Again, there is no 100% chance on this, but in my experience with a diamond Doublicious, she usually will land these and has no trouble with eating enemy's buffs.

    As far as silvers and bronzes, I've seen no issue with them keeping up against others. My diamond Sheltered still nukes enemies with ease and is ultimately more cost effective than my Primed. Both have worked great for me. If the concern is chip damage, which again, I haven't had issues with, then bring along team support.

    PD's near permanent curse doesn't seem worth complaining about simply because it takes 10 seconds. Even if your opponent tags out, a simple juggle combo covers most of those 10 seconds. I'm still in the process of building her, so maybe the enemy tags out a lot against her, but I haven't had that issue in Prize Fights. Also, you say the other silver and bronze options are bad because of their tier but say PD and Sketchy are some of the best options. Alrighty then.

    For characters with just a few debuff moves/buff removal, a Harlequinn using Battle Butt into DaF has been a staple for me on the Armor node, along with Poltergust running Drag N Drop. My Primed probably does better with this only because of her Diamond status, but I imagine that any character like this built well can keep up against armor.

    Low combo fighters aren't the most ideal, but again, Cerebella and Parasoul come to mind and they both are equipped to deal with armor.

    Your issue with bleed confuses me because armor break resist is a thing too. You also seem to agree that beyond that, bleed is a good option, but then say that Bio is too slow despite her being the equivalent of a near-permanent bleed. I'm a bit confused if I'm being honest. I've used a 9k Bio against 30k opponents and she's come out on top in a reasonable amount of time. Solid fighter.

    I agree, the idea of armor becoming the back bone of mose bases sounds boring. That's why I thought it would be best to limit the number of certain catalysts in one base, or maybe just get rid of some of these catalysts so not so many of them are armor centered. I don't think getting rid of any is the best option, but if players who have them got reimbursed then no harm, no foul.

    For the longest time, I actually thought armor reduced damage by 20% because it made the most sense. I could understand the desire to lower it to 20%. In the case of 2 armor stacks with 50% natural defense, maybe natural defense could cap lower because you make a good point. 30% or something where you'd need more than 2 stacks to become invincible to everything but bleed.
     
  8. Pepperlunatic

    Pepperlunatic Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2017
    Messages:
    101
    Likes Received:
    104
    First of all, do you not understand the difference between PD and Sketchy vs others? PD and Sketchy does not require good stats because they are mostly for applying curse. Also, not only PD has really good attack, but also PD can instantly kill enemies which does actually happens quite often if you use head combos. Although I did criticized PD for having to wait 10 second, I personally think of PD as one the very few legitimate armor counters in the game. Unlike those unstable ones that requires decent luck, this one is always consistent and has little to no effort required other than stalling for 10 seconds.

    Second, Not sure how strong these bronze and silvers become after getting lvl 60 but in most cases for majority of the players(which you are not because you are at least high 10%), gold lvl 50 would be the maximum that they can generally get and most(not all) of the gold bronze or gold silver do somewhat fall off due to lower stat than natural gold or natural diamond. Sure your diamond sheltered does nuke others time to time but you would definitely not use that to a very disgustingly difficult node.

    Third, you think that I am just complaining about armor just because it makes enemy invincible after 2 stack but that is not the case. Sure that part is ridiculous but the issue with armor is that it is not only a very powerful buff but also it synergies with various other modifiers, catalyst, and SA. These synergy greatly punishes you if you try to do a regular combo to them while they have armor. For example, buer thresher is a great armor shredder in general but because armor overrides armor break and armor break can sometimes not happen per hit, your buer thresher can easily get interrupted by stun if enemy was RE (unflinching can also interrupt Drag N Drop(right before she says digger) if really need additional example). Because of huge risks for hitting enemies with armor, even having armor break or buff removal can be risky.

    Fourth, Armor break resist is a thing yes but it is less important because armor break is not really a threat compared to bleed. Also, characters like Brain Freeze benefit from bleed resist because the their defenses do not relies heavily on armor and the only legitimate counter other than hex and doom is bleed. Considering how bleed is more threatening and common, bleed resist has more value and thus potential be used by enemy defenders. Also, I have forgot to mention this but the real main issue with bleed other than that stupid bleed resist shenanigan is that it requires you to hit enemy with armor to apply the bleed. It is basically rats trying to put a bell on cat's collar. Considering that buer thresher and drag n drop is also a risky due to inconsistency of armor break, it is just too risky

    For bio exorcist one, I will not say further about that since I talked about her based on what I have heard from other players and therefore I have no authority of talking about bio exorcist.

    I have tried all of these options except the bio exorcist one and I have to say that people have different run and RNG so I guess there are some subjectivity to both of our arguments. However, that does not make armor is fine as it is. Armor is fundamentally flawed in that it is not only a really powerful buff but also the other abilities that synergies with armor makes it ridiculously more powerful. Considering how dominant armor is affecting the meta and how it makes various unpleasant player experiences, there must be some changes to make sure these counters that you've talked about to be more consistent and be less risky.
     
  9. Blimeylimey

    Blimeylimey Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2017
    Messages:
    71
    Likes Received:
    58
    Another idea for nerfing reactive armor in general is to take a page from Blue Screen and have the armor get removed on knock down. Alternatively, armor is removed when the combo counter resets.
    This is, I think, a lighter touch that adds counterplay but still keeps a lot of the power.
     
    cappatacus and Dusty00 like this.
  10. cappatacus

    cappatacus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2018
    Messages:
    384
    Likes Received:
    295
    I do understand the difference between PD and Sketchy vs others, but again, as someone who has done perfectly fine with the other variants it still doesn't quite male sense to me what you're trying to say. I could understand Sketchy because you don't have to use her at all in a fight, but if I were worried about her stats being too low, I personally wouldn't bring her into a fight at all because I tend to switch out to all my fighters at some point in a match. But I could understand using her as team support. As for PD, I hear so many people go on about how her head is too difficult to use that I figure insta death hardly a factor for most players. If you're comfortable with her, then great, but does the 10% chance bother you or do her stats make up for it?

    If her stats make up for it, then again, Doublicious has pretty high attack and once again I don't fully see your point. Kinda, kinda not. That's okay. Your point about RNG may very well be true. Maybe she's worked awful for other people, or maybe you just have particularly bad luck with her, or I'm just particularly lucky, but if you ask me 25% is nothing to scoff at. Imagine if AF proc'd at 25% lol

    You say armor break is less important so therefore it is used less and that bleed is more important. After hearing that, I would think, "so isn't bleed still the best option?", but then you threw that metaphor at me and I really just don't know what you're saying. If you hit an opponent with armor and land bleed, then unless it's RE and you don't bring immunity, you're perfectly safe and the opponent is taking damage. And armor break attacks have never appeared risky to me. Both of your examples of risky attacks sound...safe. I'm a bit confused. Do you mean risky in the sense that they may not armor break? In my experience, they always have, and I'm hesitant to believe I've been blessed by RNGesus on two fronts.

    Edit: The note about armor invincibility was in response to Tony's comment on it
     
    #10 cappatacus, May 25, 2019
    Last edited: May 25, 2019
  11. xcapibara

    xcapibara Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2018
    Messages:
    167
    Likes Received:
    91
    In my opinion, not only should armor break be buffed to prevent armor gain for its duration as suggested in this thread, armor should also be greatly nerfed to about 10% damage reduction.
     
    moomouse, fanghoul and Diony like this.
  12. TonyPartridge30

    TonyPartridge30 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2017
    Messages:
    623
    Likes Received:
    449
    So the idea would be that the only way to attain 100% damage reduction would be 50% and 5 stacks of armor? I’d be on board with something like this, though I feel like it would necessitate reworking of fighters with armor-based abilities.
     
    moomouse and fanghoul like this.

Share This Page