Fights [Competitive PvP] Valentine's CV needs a nerf

[Mornedil]

I mentioned this in the beta survey, but since it's still a thing I'll make a thread about it.

Valentine's CV blockbusters are broken in competitive PvP. It's a BB1 so it charges fast, and you can equip 3 of them which can all be used after each other with little to no effort, to do much more damage than a BB3.

Here's a video showing the damage:

That's 76 damage per CV for a total of 228 damage.
Compared to Ms. Fortunes BB3 which deals 26 + 63 damage (89 total).

In other words, landing a hit with Valentine's BB1 lets you deal almost 3 times as much damage as Ms. Fortune's BB3.


I'll suggest the same solution as I suggested in the beta survey:
Dont let valentine equip more than 1 CV in competitive. The purpose of having 3 different ones in regular gameplay is that they have different side effects, but in competitive PvP they are purely for damage, which means Valentine is essentially stacking the same blockbuster 3 times, which is not allowed for other blockbusters.

Spoiler: About Eliza's BB1s

One may argue the same should apply to Eliza's sekhmet BB1.
It was a bit of an issue in the beta, but since they nerfed sekhmet form in the 4.0 release for pvp matches, it's no longer an issue. Not only that, each sekhmet BB1 deals around 20 damage and it takes much more effort to chain them, making it more fair than Valentine's CV stacking.

 

[Fel]

I feel like Valentine is carried by the sole fact that CV can be used to frametrap, ToD and heal for a bunch.
As far as I know CV is also unsafe on block so if you mess up that intercept or frametrap you're going to eat a full combo. Not to mention the fact that it can't be used to guardbreak safely since her charge attack cannot be cancelled into CV on block.
She has a tough time getting the first hit in, her ground combo is only safe on block up to L2 and her other specials and blockbusters (excluding forbidden procedure) are pretty lackluster.
She's also a lightweight so she can and will be knocked around and ToD'd without a burst equipped.

I personally feel like there are many more "broken" characters in competitive right now. Yes CV is extremely good but if you zoom out a bit and look at Valentine's kit as a whole, its not that bad.
I would put Valentine quite high on the competitive tier list though so maybe the damage can get nerfed. Only letting her equip 1 will definitely make her so much worse than she is right now.

 

[Mornedil]

The main issue I have with val being able to chain 3 CVs is that it's cheap and takes no skill or effort.
Idk about the argument that CV is unsafe on block. Almost all BBs are. That's why you make sure to get a regular hit in first.
With valentine, you just gotta block and wait until your opponent accidentally does an L5 instead of L4, which sometimes happens due to lag, and then you just press your series of insta-win buttons.

There are other fighters who can perform long combos, but it takes more effort which doesn't feel cheap in the same way CV chaining does.

 

[buggy.]

Dont let valentine equip more than 1 CV in competitive.
[/SPOILER]

After playing with valentine for a while in competitive, agree that it does indeed feels cheap. However, not cause of how faster countervenom fills or how easy it is to land them.

It feels cheap cause of how much damage each one does. And taking away the option to equip three countervenom would make valentine close to useless as an attacker. It's a good way to chain combos and the issue is the damage it deals.

How bout reducing It's dps?

 

[Fel]

The main issue I have with val being able to chain 3 CVs is that it's cheap and takes no skill or effort.
Idk about the argument that CV is unsafe on block. Almost all BBs are. That's why you make sure to get a regular hit in first.
With valentine, you just gotta block and wait until your opponent accidentally does an L5 instead of L4, which sometimes happens due to lag, and then you just press your series of insta-win buttons.

There are other fighters who can perform long combos, but it takes more effort which doesn't feel cheap in the same way CV chaining does.

"Almost" is what matters. It was just a point to show that while CV is good, its not the best.

Not sure why people feel that CV chaining is cheap compared to other combos. The only character I'd argue has an actual high skill ceiling with combos is Ms Fortune. Maybe it just feels that way because you're seeing the same moves over and over?
"With valentine, you just gotta block and wait until your opponent accidentally does an L5 instead of L4, which sometimes happens due to lag, and then you just press your series of insta-win buttons."
This statement is true for any of the "top tier" fighters in competitive. Some characters don't even need to rely on lag or mistakes to have insta-win buttons.

I'd agree that its more frustrating to see your character die to a Valentine using the same loop 3 times. However, I don't think its any more "unfair" or cheap than what other characters have. Removing Valentine's ToD option severely affects her performance.
Again, I can agree to lowering damage or restricting the combo potential. Limiting CV to 1 copy is not a good fix in my opinion.

 

[Mornedil]

The reason why I dont see a problem with limiting Val to 1 CV is:

1. She can chain CV into other blockbusters, so she will still be able to perform good combos
2. She is a support fighter who heals herself while attacking and also has the ability to resurrect team mates. With that kind of utility, she shouldn't also have some of the strongest DPS in competitive.
3. She has access to a much higher number of different blockbuster than other fighters if you let her use 3 CVs. Even if you limit her to 1 CV, she still has a total of 6 equippable blockbusters. There are other fighters who only have 5.

 

[Fel]

The reason why I dont see a problem with limiting Val to 1 CV is:

1. She can chain CV into other blockbusters, so she will still be able to perform good combos
2. She is a support fighter who heals herself while attacking and also has the ability to resurrect team mates. With that kind of utility, she shouldn't also have some of the strongest DPS in competitive.
3. She has access to a much higher number of different blockbuster than other fighters if you let her use 3 CVs. Even if you limit her to 1 CV, she still has a total of 6 equippable blockbusters. There are other fighters who only have 5.

1. Checkmate incision and Larygectomy cannot be combo'd out of. She'd be able to perform combos. They would be far from "good".
2. Just like in SG2E, she should be able to hold her own alone in competitive. Big Band is not a tank in competitive, the concept of "support" fighters should not be relevant.
3. Higher blockbuster count does not matter, the quality of those blockbusters do. Not only that, some special moves are just straight up better than most blockbusters and Val doesn't have any of that. Sure other characters have 5 BBs, but if you count the good moves, its not that different between the top tiers.

Maybe if the meta was different and ToDs/guard break wasn't around as much you could justify just one CV. Your proposed change just pushes Val completely out of the meta and she becomes like Beowulf.
Everyone has at least some sort of niche in competitive (except maybe Beo). Limiting Val to 1 CV means she has no niches.

 

[Mornedil]

1. Checkmate incision and Larygectomy cannot be combo'd out of. She'd be able to perform combos. They would be far from "good".
2. Just like in SG2E, she should be able to hold her own alone in competitive. Big Band is not a tank in competitive, the concept of "support" fighters should not be relevant.
3. Higher blockbuster count does not matter, the quality of those blockbusters do. Not only that, some special moves are just straight up better than most blockbusters and Val doesn't have any of that. Sure other characters have 5 BBs, but if you count the good moves, its not that different between the top tiers.

Maybe if the meta was different and ToDs/guard break wasn't around as much you could justify just one CV. Your proposed change just pushes Val completely out of the meta and she becomes like Beowulf.
Everyone has at least some sort of niche in competitive (except maybe Beo). Limiting Val to 1 CV means she has no niches.

there are plenty of BBs you cannot combo out of, but that's irrelevant if they can be combo'd into, meaning they can still be used in longer combos to deal tons of damage.

today I battled a Valentine who only had 1 CV equipped and she was still amazingly strong and was able to perform long combos where I couldn't do anything but sit back and watch until I died. The difference was that it actually took a skilled player to perform it.
Point is, she doesn't need 3 CVs to "hold her own".

Are you saying Valentine's blockbusters and moves have no quality? What?
Her BBs can be used both to extend ground combos, and be chained together to deal tons of damage (even with just 1 CV). She can resurrect. She can use ranged moves and BBs. She has an unblockable grab move you cannot throw break.
i think you're exaggerating about how she's only useful if she can spam CVs. That's not her only niche.

 

[Mornedil]

I managed to catch a good example of why nerfing CV damage wont solve the problem, and why it makes more sense to only let her equip 1 CV:

She can use CV to extend L5 over and over, meaning that with 3 CVs she can safely perform 4x L5 in a row.

As you can see in the video, all she needs is to get 1 hit in (and it could even happen from lag, you can see that Robo-Fortune was blocking), and then due to how fast a BB1 charges, she will always have access to extend her combo to instantly kill her opponent with minimal effort.

 

[Fel]

there are plenty of BBs you cannot combo out of, but that's irrelevant if they can be combo'd into, meaning they can still be used in longer combos to deal tons of damage.

today I battled a Valentine who only had 1 CV equipped and she was still amazingly strong and was able to perform long combos where I couldn't do anything but sit back and watch until I died. The difference was that it actually took a skilled player to perform it.
Point is, she doesn't need 3 CVs to "hold her own".

Are you saying Valentine's blockbusters and moves have no quality? What?
Her BBs can be used both to extend ground combos, and be chained together to deal tons of damage (even with just 1 CV). She can resurrect. She can use ranged moves and BBs. She has an unblockable grab move you cannot throw break.
i think you're exaggerating about how she's only useful if she can spam CVs. That's not her only niche.

1. Not being able to combo out of a BB means you have less potential damage. Remove Val's easy access ToD and she's not very good.
2. Being skilled has very little do with what BBs you use. Knowing a combo does not mean they are any more skilled. CV loops are not universal, and can fail at certain distances (generally when you use CV to reversal). This makes her combo harder than a lot of other combos.
3. Her special moves aren't that great, Mortuary drop has a very specific range that you can definitely punish.
4. Her niche is that she can ToD easily and gets the chance to ToD often (basically Squigly's niche but without the guard break and with revives). Syringes need to be prepped and deal low damage (can extend L5 but the prep is very risky against most of the top tiers). Dead cross has very little application in combos (maybe something with close up guard break? Would need testing). Checkmate Incision is a BB which means she can't expect it to be up for guard pressure often.
Her other niche would be ally reviving, which I will give is neat, but I personally think is not powerful enough to warrant restricting CV to 1.

You also keep bringing up that lag makes Valentine get her ToD easier, but again, thats true for all characters with a ToD. Maybe the devs could make CV's link into L1 more tight so that she has trouble getting it in lag? That would make it more "fair" if lag is your concern.

The main point I'm arguing is that Val is not broken compared to the other top tiers in SGM Competitive. Sure if we were to bring everyone down to around Beowulf/Cerebella/Parasoul's level I can definitely see a nerf being needed. I also wouldn't be angry if they did nerf her since Competitive SGM isn't exactly a big e-sports category. Val is strong enough to be one of the stronger characters in Comp, but outside of Ms Fortune, I also wouldn't say she's any easier to play.