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Fights Do you think this is fair BB usage from the AI?

Discussion in 'Feedback & Suggestions' started by Mornedil, Sep 1, 2019.

?

Is this kind of BB usage fair?

  1. Yes, it is normal

  2. No, this feels unfair

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Mornedil

    Mornedil Member

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    I've had this happen from time to time:
    1. I'm blocking, and the AI finishes their combo
    2. I immediately try to counter attack
    3. AI immediately uses a BB

    (I block --- Filia uses launcher --- I try to counter attack --- She uses BB)

    Someone mentioned it's not safe to attack after AI uses launcher, but personally I think this kind of BB usage is complete bullshit. Most of the time it works to counter attack after launcher, and if you keep blocking instead of attacking, who knows when the next safe window to attack will be?

    What do you think?
    Is this fair BB usage (no matter if it's done by you or the AI), or is it unfair?
     
  2. Blimeylimey

    Blimeylimey Member

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    I think it’s because you open with dash1 which is slower than jab and creates the opening for the block buster.
     
  3. Belar

    Belar New Member

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    You can't punish everyting whit dashx1
     
  4. Mornedil

    Mornedil Member

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    Yeah, most likely. But that's not what makes it feel cheap and unfair.

    What makes it feel "off", is that even if there might be a 1 frame window for the AI to use a BB there, the AI shouldn't react that fast. They would never use a blockable BB on a blocking opponent, which means that they can detect in 1 frame that you stopped blocking, and react by using a BB before your hit lands. It feels unrealistic and inconsistent.

    In a similar manner, cerebella has the ability to react in 1 frame before your grab touches her, and use DAF in your face.
    (cerebella was blocking, tried to grab her, and she instantly used DAF)

    unknown[1].png
     
    500TheoniteSeriously likes this.
  5. Blimeylimey

    Blimeylimey Member

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    I’m not a really technical or even good fighting game player, but I think this is what fighting games are about. You try to manipulate the game state to get advantages and then need to know how to use them.

    I could be wrong about interpreting the frame data here, but using the example in the video:
    Filia launcher: 21 recovery and 19 block stun
    Robo dash1: 10 startup
    Filia Drill Tempered: 5 startup
    Robo jab: 6 startup

    So if you respond with jab you hit 1 frame before Drill Tempered but dash1 is 3 frames too late.
    If you start dash1 right out of block stun, the opponent sees 2 frames of startup while they’re in recovery and can buffer the blockbuster with 2 frames to spare for Drill Tempered to hit first. That’s a 4 frame window. It seems reasonable to me.
     
  6. Mornedil

    Mornedil Member

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    in a 60 FPS game, 4 frames equal around 66 milliseconds.
    Whether or not it's reasonable, does imo change depending on circumstance.

    Circumstance A: Did the AI already queue up a BB in that moment, and was going to use it regardless of your actions?
    If so, then yes, it's reasonable to pull off a BB there.

    Circumstance B: Did the AI notice you stopped blocking, and only then decided to use a BB?
    If so, then no, this isn't reasonable and way too fast of a reaction. The average human reaction time is 200-250 milliseconds, and 66 milliseconds is over 3 times as fast.


    It seems like B is more likely, since the AI doesn't use blockable BBs when you keep blocking (at least from my experience).
    Sure, the AI isn't human, but fair AI design should have a balance between difficulty, predictability, and mimicking human behavior (in a fighting game, the latter means having a fair reaction time).
    Some games have unfair AI on purpose, but to me it makes sense that AI in fighting games shouldn't have superhuman reflexes
    (unless it's a boss fight that's intentionally unfair, like some of the bosses in Tekken games).
     
    #6 Mornedil, Sep 2, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2019
  7. Blimeylimey

    Blimeylimey Member

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    Like I said, I’m not even good at fighting games so my interpretation may not be accurate. I’m sure someone who actually knows (like @Liam) can clarify.
    What I see when looking at the frame data is that if I’m using Robo and want to punish Filia off of blocking launcher, I can jab safely or I can dash with the possibility that my opponent can do something (like drill tempered).
    You asked if other players think this blockbuster usage is fair and I think the case you presented in the video is fair. There is a safe option (jab) and a risky option (dash). The player took the risky option and it didn’t work out. This happened to me all the time before I stopped trying to open with dash all the time. It doesn’t have to be a blockbuster and I think that’s where we might be looking at different things. Filia’s jab is 5 startup and would beat Robo dash also.
     
  8. Mornedil

    Mornedil Member

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    Yeah I wanted to ask what others think, but I still have my own opinion on it =)
    Where can you see frame data btw? I didn't know it was available, so i've been going with how it feels while playing.
     
    #8 Mornedil, Sep 2, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
  9. Blimeylimey

    Blimeylimey Member

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    This is embarrassing. I looked it up based on the 2e information because I thought I remembered the devs said it’s the same. Turns out I misremembered and it was really that the hit boxes are the same. So...the numbers I put up previously could be wrong.
     
  10. Luke

    Luke Well-Known Member

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    nah. i think you got it right. the devs made the point so many times on how the ai have the same thing to work with as players, its just ai will forever be faster than 99% of us. but thats also how fighting games are and have been. do i like it? no. but i dont want to change it either. im traditional like that.

    side note id always wanted combo counters on ai's side thou so i can see how i missed my chances in big red letters lol
     
  11. Liam

    Liam !Robot
    Hidden Variable Dev

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    Sorry for the slow response in this thread! I appreciate the ping, this stuff is my jam, and I'm always happy to explain this stuff in detail.

    Despite your earliest attempts to counter attack, your counter attack still came out very slow. This is likely because we usually expect the AI to do their ground combo all the way to the end, or close to it, before using a launcher. Perhaps this sudden launcher caught you by surprise, and your input and reaction was delayed as a result?

    I've recorded an example of what the proper fast punish looks like on Filia's launcher as Robo-Fortune with Dash Attack, here:


    You can see that Filia's launcher has so little "blockstun", that you can cancel into a Dash Attack extremely quickly. Here's the first frame where Robo-Fortune enters her Dash Attack animation. You can still see the faint outline from the ⃠ DO NOT ENTER blockstun effect.
    [​IMG]

    In your video, Robo-Fortune almost completely recovers to the idle stance before she begins doing her Dash Attack, which is why Filia was able to fire off her queued Blockbuster.

    You can use the period and comma key (< and >) to advance one frame forward or backwards in a YouTube video, which should also help with the analysis.

    I understand where you're coming from, and this hair trigger AI reaction time is something that I've been wanting to look at for awhile. But, any time we change core AI logic like this, it does carry a lot of risk.

    This is the biggest offender that we've been made aware of recently and will hopefully be looking into.

    The frame data for Skullgirls mobile has always been different than Skullgirls 2nd Encore, and it was recently changed even more in 3.2. The most recent information can be found in the COMBAT REFACTORS section of the 3.2 update notes:
    https://forum.skullgirlsmobile.com/threads/official-3-2-1-update-notes-live.5781/

    Here's a snippit:
    Eventually, I'd love to have frame data (including start up, recovery, attack values on block and hit, etc) available in game!

    The hitboxes are the same, yeah. We change attack frame data, but we don't touch the hitboxes outside of VERY rare circumstances, like making Robo-Fortune's Magnetic Trap more reliable, for example.

    We're going to need to do this for VERSUS mode, so this is on our "very soon" roadmap. ^^
     
  12. Mornedil

    Mornedil Member

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    Wow, that's a very detailed response. Thanks!

    Now that you mentioned the trick to advancing youtube videos frame by frame, I can see exactly what you're describing.
    There were too many frames between the release of the block and the start of the dash.

    I'm not sure if it was due to a slow of reaction, or because of a habit i've gotten from trying to avoid accidentally grabbing after a block. (Basically, swiping right too fast after blocking causes the character to grab instead of dash)
    Someone explained it in this thread: https://forum.skullgirlsmobile.com/threads/can-i-d1-instead-of-grab.6062/

    So that creates the problem that swiping too fast may register as a grab, and swiping too slow creates an opening, which may make it hard to perform a dash properly in this situation.

    I'll try to get a habit of skipping the dash and initiating with a light attack in situations like this
     

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