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Eliza "Stand Out" - Strategy and Discussion

nesteaisnasty

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I've seen quite a lot of people getting Stand Out so I decided to start a thread on her abilities. What's your opinion on this natural diamond?
Personally I use her against annoying fighters like Untouchable, Resonant Evil and Armed Forces so she can prevent them from gaining buffs and fill her blockbusters.
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xcapibara

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Her SA1 is a bit meh, her SA2 should be buffed to at least 75% chance to remove buff imo, given how expensive it is to max out. Haven’t upgraded mine much for precisely that reason.
 

AnimeAccel13

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I agree with xcapibara that her SA1 is meh, but I belive her SA2 is great as it is. 50% to convert enemy buffs to meter is balanced in my opinion since you gold use chaos banish get rid of any remaining buffs. I can see her being a great counter to characters such as RE Band and Untouchable and even other diamonds like Heavy Handed and Jawbreaker.
 

xcapibara

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I agree with xcapibara that her SA1 is meh, but I belive her SA2 is great as it is. 50% to convert enemy buffs to meter is balanced in my opinion since you gold use chaos banish get rid of any remaining buffs. I can see her being a great counter to characters such as RE Band and Untouchable and even other diamonds like Heavy Handed and Jawbreaker.

50% SA2 is too little for too much cost (200k coins per node plus a lot of skill points) when, as you mentioned, there’s chaos banish special move (which comes in all flavors, even bronze!) with a 100% certainty to work and even apply heal block. Or a silver character (purrfect dark) which is much, much cheaper to upgrade and can permanently curse opponents after 10 seconds. Or a lower tier eliza (red velvet) who can sekhmet hex for a 100% certainty.
Compare with (what little i’ve seen) other natural diamonds which can disable bb’s by mere proximity, drain life, and even make you lose huge chunks of hp by simply blocking your blockbusters.
And what you get is meter gain? Pffftt. Even bronze beat box can gain 25% meter by using a special move. Or a gray matter cerebella who gives extra meter to teammates, and so on.
To make matters worse, that SA2 is dedicated to opponents who actually gain buffs, against those who do not gain buffs throughout the match the SA2 is non-existant.

No, her signature abilities are quite mediocre and way too expensive for such mediocrity.
 
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cappatacus

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She seems.....disappointing. On offense, she only has meter gain going for her, and on defense, she needs to rely on her AI to actually get attacks in in order to activate vampirism - meaning she'd make for mediocre defense. She's like a weirder version of Diva. At the very least, her SA2 is passive which could be alright on defense and, as previously stated, be good in niche situations. That seems to be the case with many Eliza variants, doesn't it?
 

TonyPartridge30

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50% SA2 is too little for too much cost (200k coins per node plus a lot of skill points) when, as you mentioned, there’s chaos banish special move (which comes in all flavors, even bronze!) with a 100% certainty to work and even apply heal block. Or a silver character (purrfect dark) which is much, much cheaper to upgrade and can permanently curse opponents after 10 seconds. Or a lower tier eliza (red velvet) who can sekhmet hex for a 100% certainty.
Compare with (what little i’ve seen) other natural diamonds which can disable bb’s by mere proximity, drain life, and even make you lose huge chunks of hp by simply blocking your blockbusters.
And what you get is meter gain? Pffftt. Even bronze beat box can gain 25% meter by using a special move. Or a gray matter cerebella who gives extra meter to teammates, and so on.
To make matters worse, that SA2 is dedicated to opponents who actually gain buffs, against those who do not gain buffs throughout the match the SA2 is non-existant.

No, her signature abilities are quite mediocre and way too expensive for such mediocrity.
Oh boy. Here's hoping my first natural Diamond isn't a Stand Out Eliza.
 

xcapibara

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Like cappatacus above said, she is disappointing. Her attk and hp is quite high though, but i guess thats just natural diamond levels, would need to compare to other nat dia to see how good or bad she is in that department.

I’ve gotten her twice now (which led me to discover that you can’t sacrifice natural diamonds for power up), if my third nat diamond turns out to be another Stand Out i’ll know that i’m being trolled.
 

nesteaisnasty

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50% SA2 is too little for too much cost (200k coins per node plus a lot of skill points) when, as you mentioned, there’s chaos banish special move (which comes in all flavors, even bronze!) with a 100% certainty to work and even apply heal block. Or a silver character (purrfect dark) which is much, much cheaper to upgrade and can permanently curse opponents after 10 seconds. Or a lower tier eliza (red velvet) who can sekhmet hex for a 100% certainty.
Compare with (what little i’ve seen) other natural diamonds which can disable bb’s by mere proximity, drain life, and even make you lose huge chunks of hp by simply blocking your blockbusters.
And what you get is meter gain? Pffftt. Even bronze beat box can gain 25% meter by using a special move. Or a gray matter cerebella who gives extra meter to teammates, and so on.
To make matters worse, that SA2 is dedicated to opponents who actually gain buffs, against those who do not gain buffs throughout the match the SA2 is non-existant.

No, her signature abilities are quite mediocre and way too expensive for such mediocrity.
fully agreed! for a natural diamond her ability is way too weak and seems like a bad red velvet + diva parody. I feel like she should be buffed or given additional ability like replacing buffs with debuffs or something. her health restoring part is also bad because you can only fill 50% when going against one opponent and for nd, if you ask me, it’s just mediocre. giving a million of coins and hundreds of skill points just for her SA is just a waste.

BUFF STAND OUT
 

nesteaisnasty

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so... they "buffed" her...
instead of increasing her SA2 (which was the most requested thing) we got a little bigger percentage on her SA1, so now she regains 75% of the dealt damage. do you think it makes any difference? should she get another buff or is it enough?
 

Reshiram18

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so... they "buffed" her...
instead of increasing her SA2 (which was the most requested thing) we got a little bigger percentage on her SA1, so now she regains 75% of the dealt damage. do you think it makes any difference? should she get another buff or is it enough?
That "buff" was not even close to enough of a buff to make Stand Out viable. She still can't even heal to full health with her SA1 and her unreliable SA2 was not even changed at all.
 

xcapibara

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That "buff" was not even close to enough of a buff to make Stand Out viable. She still can't even heal to full health with her SA1 and her unreliable SA2 was not even changed at all.

I agree. They could increase the sa1 to 300% of damage dealt and it would still be bad because of that “lower than your opponent” bit. Still quite worse than silver bloody valentine.
 
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Fel

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That "buff" was not even close to enough of a buff to make Stand Out viable. She still can't even heal to full health with her SA1 and her unreliable SA2 was not even changed at all.
Note that shes a formidable defender with the heal on block and buff denial/meter gain.
 

xcapibara

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Note that shes a formidable defender with the heal on block and buff denial/meter gain.

Hitting block usually means getting punished; no percentage heal of chip damage can make up for that. Also, defender characters are the ones that for the most part depend on buffs throughout the match to do their thing, not the attacker (the player), there debuffs are much more prevalent.
 

Fel

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Hitting block usually means getting punished; no percentage heal of chip damage can make up for that. Also, defender characters are the ones that for the most part depend on buffs throughout the match to do their thing, not the attacker (the player), there debuffs are much more prevalent.
There isn't anyone that really punishes buff fighters at the moment. If you put her on a fight where the modifier requires immunity to bypass (i.e. Ms fortunes PF) she becomes very annoying to fight. Also you should be blocking every hit the AI throws at you anyways so the heal on block is very relevant on defense. Especially with the buff to Elizas dash attack.
 

xcapibara

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There isn't anyone that really punishes buff fighters at the moment. If you put her on a fight where the modifier requires immunity to bypass (i.e. Ms fortunes PF) she becomes very annoying to fight. Also you should be blocking every hit the AI throws at you anyways so the heal on block is very relevant on defense. Especially with the buff to Elizas dash attack.

She won’t get much of a healing from a percentage of chip damage unless there’s a vast difference in fighter score, and shes gonna get punished afterwards. Also, as an attacker, applying debuffs is much more important and prevalent then getting buffs. Nah, shes quite mediocre on defense as well.
 

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My personal thoughts on Stand Out so far:

She's... Ok, I guess.

I don't have too much to add as a whole about her SAs, but I have to agree in many aspects already discussed.

  • The SA1 is definetely the most undercooked one: its only application would be to get out of tight situations, but if it just so happens that the AI is in one as well and is closer to dying, you're recovering anything (granted, you can leech out of the next opponent if there is any left, but the point still stands). The basic counter would be Nekbet Breaker because of its large damage output. Plus it counts as a grab, so bonus points for that.
  • The SA2 is where my interests rises considerably. The instant buff transfer to Blockbuster meter is a rather unique ability, but making it based on a 50% chance of success is what turns it into a mostly unreliable skill. The character that I personally compare Stand Out to quite often is Poltergust. They both benefit from buffs to build meter, but where Stand Out is faster, Poltergust is safer. And that brings me to my next point
HOW TO MAKE STAND-OUT HIGH(ER)-TIER?

People suggest that the fist SA shouldn't even have a limit to when to heal. "Just make it like Leech Filia, or the Vampire effect. In exchange, reduce the amount of HP recovered per hit". I can totally see why they'd want this change, and I see myself within this bandwagon, though I'm ok if it's not changed. Perhaps it's that I use Bloodbath for the self healing department that I wouldn't be too bothered if it's left as is.

The second SA definetely needs to be 100% chance to instantly remove buffs with a reduction on the Blockbuster meter gained (at least to 5/7/10%-5/10/15%).

Wouldn't that make her broken as hell?

Not really. Assassin's Greed has guaranteed 25% of remaining HP damage when using a Blockbuster, punishing its usage heavily, so why not the same except with buffs? Also while there are variants that already inflict Curse, like Purrfect Dark, Stand Out wouldn't require a debuff, therefore not only bypassing Immunity, but punishing its usage.


On offense she pretty much would be the destroyer of overly tanky and buff-based defense teams (i.e. Armed Forces, Resonant Evil and Surgeon General); as a defender, you just use a non-buff based fighter like Harlequin or Freeze Frame, and there you go, easy counter.

Some may fear that it could potentially lead to an "endless" stream of BB3 attacks with next to no counter possibility. But here's the thing: I already considered the meter gain reduction, making it less spammable (but probably spammable in some cases anyway), and it's not like she couldn't get inflicted with Disable Blockbusters or Wither.

I would point out the fact that she kinda shoots herself in the foot with her catalyst, Pharaohmones (If Eliza's HP% is lower, inflict Hex and Curse when hit), but realistically a lot of Elizas do. It's just more instantanious compared to others.

I'm not sure if she'll ever get improved (we can only hope), but at least if the SA2 fails, I can always rely on that sweet, sweet Chaos Banish.
 
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TonyPartridge30

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The second SA definetely needs to be 100% chance to instantly remove buffs with a reduction on the Blockbuster meter gained (at least to 5/7/10%-5/10/15%).
I think a 100% chance to cancel buffs would be broken, despite your counterexample of Assassin's Greed. With Assassin's Greed, you can mostly counter her with almost anything that counters Bleed, of which there are several options. Or, anything that applies Heal Block.

50% chance at buff removal for Stand Out may be a bit unreliable, but 100% just sounds too useful, so a happy medium would probably be somewhere in the 70-75% range. Couple that with the meter gain reduction and I think you have a very balanced rework that makes her more viable without becoming OP.
 
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