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Fights Fight Scores currently don't make sense

fanghoul

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Fight scores (FSs) in prize fight mode, as currently implemented, don't make any sense and don't actually reflect the difficulty of a fight

There seem to be two main problems:

1) FSs currently favor some characters over others. After a certain point you only fight combinations of Cerebella, Beowolf, Big Bad and Eliza, and even then most of those are Cerebella. It makes the game more uniform and boring. It's ridiculous that you will almost never fight 2/3s of the available character in the game in prize fight mode. And not because they're bad characters that no one likes, but because they just have a lower max FS.

As a minor additional complaint, this also means that the game rewards you with more points for using these top FS characters, and there doesn't seem to be a reason to arbitrarily favor players for using those characters.


2) FSs don't accurately reflect difficulty. Three Cerebellas with all their nodes unlocked are currently always be the max possible FS in prize fights, but their actual difficulty could vary immensely depending on how much has been invested into their moves. This doesn't reward players for investing in their characters and also makes it somewhat impossible to judge which fight will actually be harder when you're selecting one in Prize Fight mode.


3) 1 and 2 combine to make for even more non-sensetical results. My Parasite Weave tears apart almost everyone I throw her against in seconds, and I've invested a lot of my canopy coins to make her even tougher. But her fight score will always be almost 2k lower than a Cerebella, even if that Cerebella has no moves equipped. It's bonkers.


Addressing the problem in (1) seems relatively straightforward. We'd probably need to make a character's base fight score depend on the character's level, and the nodes unlocked, and not base it on the character's inherent stats. There doesn't seem to be a good reason for all Filia's to be considered worse than all Cerebellas, etc.

(2) is more tricky, because some stats and moves are considered more valuable than others. A character with maxed defense and attack is generally going to do better than one with maxed disable and bleed resist, and attack +% is generally better than the flat attack bonus +N. Which we might be able to address, but weighing the value of things like bleed resist against disable resist gets tricky. I think the best solution here might be to just give a character a flat bonus per move level so long as it's of the same grade (gold/silver/bronze), and if someone really wants to take a gold move to level 15 with what's generally considered to be terrible stats, that's their own prerogative.


TL: DR
Fight scores in prize fights favor some characters over others, and don't represent investing in moves at all. This could be addressed by making the base fight score for all characters uniform if they have the same level and nodes unlocked, and making moves provide a flat bonus per move grade and level.
 

Gerhop

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I have to go a little off-topic here: slightly or medium increased FS for the new characters (beowulf and eliza currently) is actually makes sense in terms of game monetisation (also known as "game health" and potency). Whenewer a new playable character is released, what's the best way to motivate players to buy it and play it? Yes, it is - give those character increased stats or some good features, that'll ensure it relevance in current game meta. Permanently or temporarily - is up to devs, but it's really good thing imo. Why? Because if character has nearly the same power-level as those characters that have been already introduced, what's the point for players to spend theonite ($) on it? For collection purposes, you may say, but it'll work only for players that have an interest in it; much more of playerbase is oriented onto row strenght of characters, instead of those characters itself.
 

Liam

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@Gerhop
While I'm sure that everything you have mentioned probably does generate an increase in sales, purposely releasing overpowered characters for revenue isn't something we'll be doing.
By creating new characters that are powerful, useful, and fun to explore, hopefully we can create a more natural urgency to acquire new fighters.

That said, "I think the new character is cool, but not good, so I don't want them", is an issue we'll be watching out for!

@fanghoul

Thanks so much for reaching out to us!
I'll do my best to address some of these concerns:

1) FS calculations heavily favouring Beowulf and Cerebella is something that we'll be addressing with our Prize Fight revisions.
After players are able to manually set defense teams, and also collect rewards for successful defenses, you'll start to see a lot of new faces in Prize Fights. It will be up to the player to decide if they want a triple Bella team, not the game =)

2) A very good observation! I'll pass this along to the rest of the team to see if we can find ways to better reflect the difficulty spike from a fighter having maxed moves.

3) I think 1) should make this less of an issue!

Thanks again for your feedback!
You can read about other upcoming changes for 2018 through the link in my signature below.
 

Kokonut

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@Gerhop
While I'm sure that everything you have mentioned probably does generate an increase in sales, purposely releasing overpowered characters for revenue isn't something we'll be doing.
By creating new characters that are powerful, useful, and fun to explore, hopefully we can create a more natural urgency to acquire new fighters.

That said, "I think the new character is cool, but not good, so I don't want them", is an issue we'll be watching out for!

@fanghoul

Thanks so much for reaching out to us!
I'll do my best to address some of these concerns:

1) FS calculations heavily favouring Beowulf and Cerebella is something that we'll be addressing with our Prize Fight revisions.
After players are able to manually set defense teams, and also collect rewards for successful defenses, you'll start to see a lot of new faces in Prize Fights. It will be up to the player to decide if they want a triple Bella team, not the game =)

2) A very good observation! I'll pass this along to the rest of the team to see if we can find ways to better reflect the difficulty spike from a fighter having maxed moves.

3) I think 1) should make this less of an issue!

Thanks again for your feedback!
You can read about other upcoming changes for 2018 through the link in my signature below.

I've seen the concept of manually setting up defense teams being mentioned a few times now, but I'm not sure what that means?
 

Fel

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I've seen the concept of manually setting up defense teams being mentioned a few times now, but I'm not sure what that means?
Currently the game sets your PF team (the team other people see and fight) as the highest total FS team you've used. They will change it so that you can set your team to be whatever you want, so now you can put 3 Resident Evils on your team without having to grind PF with 3 resident evils as your max FS team.
 
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Kokonut

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Currently the game sets your PF team (the team other people see and fight) as the highest total FS team you've used. They will change it so that you can set your team to be whatever you want, so now you can put 3 Resident Evils on your team without having to grind PF with 3 resident evils as your max FS team.

Thnx. That makes a lot of sense. Seems like there'll still be at least a few ppl who put up high fs teams just to troll tho
 
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fanghoul

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Thanks for the response Liam!

Hopefully the new "pick your own defending team" system also has a new method of picking which teams you see, instead of just picking those with the highest scores eventually, or else it seems like we're back in the same boat.
 

luckykhanh

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Fight scores (FSs) in prize fight mode, as currently implemented, don't make any sense and don't actually reflect the difficulty of a fight

There seem to be two main problems:

1) FSs currently favor some characters over others. After a certain point you only fight combinations of Cerebella, Beowolf, Big Bad and Eliza, and even then most of those are Cerebella. It makes the game more uniform and boring. It's ridiculous that you will almost never fight 2/3s of the available character in the game in prize fight mode. And not because they're bad characters that no one likes, but because they just have a lower max FS.

As a minor additional complaint, this also means that the game rewards you with more points for using these top FS characters, and there doesn't seem to be a reason to arbitrarily favor players for using those characters.


2) FSs don't accurately reflect difficulty. Three Cerebellas with all their nodes unlocked are currently always be the max possible FS in prize fights, but their actual difficulty could vary immensely depending on how much has been invested into their moves. This doesn't reward players for investing in their characters and also makes it somewhat impossible to judge which fight will actually be harder when you're selecting one in Prize Fight mode.


3) 1 and 2 combine to make for even more non-sensetical results. My Parasite Weave tears apart almost everyone I throw her against in seconds, and I've invested a lot of my canopy coins to make her even tougher. But her fight score will always be almost 2k lower than a Cerebella, even if that Cerebella has no moves equipped. It's bonkers.


Addressing the problem in (1) seems relatively straightforward. We'd probably need to make a character's base fight score depend on the character's level, and the nodes unlocked, and not base it on the character's inherent stats. There doesn't seem to be a good reason for all Filia's to be considered worse than all Cerebellas, etc.

(2) is more tricky, because some stats and moves are considered more valuable than others. A character with maxed defense and attack is generally going to do better than one with maxed disable and bleed resist, and attack +% is generally better than the flat attack bonus +N. Which we might be able to address, but weighing the value of things like bleed resist against disable resist gets tricky. I think the best solution here might be to just give a character a flat bonus per move level so long as it's of the same grade (gold/silver/bronze), and if someone really wants to take a gold move to level 15 with what's generally considered to be terrible stats, that's their own prerogative.


TL: DR
Fight scores in prize fights favor some characters over others, and don't represent investing in moves at all. This could be addressed by making the base fight score for all characters uniform if they have the same level and nodes unlocked, and making moves provide a flat bonus per move grade and level.

My favourite combination is Peacock, Filia and finally Valentine(general surgery) or Big Band. I dont seem to prefer Cerrebela and Eliza that much because they are boring, not much innovation can be made for their fight style and their movement is slow, which is not flexible. You feel boring because of your choice, not the game. Play it for fun mate :d.
 

fanghoul

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My favourite combination is Peacock, Filia and finally Valentine(general surgery) or Big Band. I dont seem to prefer Cerrebela and Eliza that much because they are boring, not much innovation can be made for their fight style and their movement is slow, which is not flexible. You feel boring because of your choice, not the game. Play it for fun mate :d.

I don't even mention which teams I use in that post
 

luckykhanh

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I don't even mention which teams I use in that post
Sorry if I missunderstood, but yah I find it is better to enjoy the game then. The difference in fighter score is real and unbalance but the signature ability or Cerebella and Eliza is a bit boring and less deadly or helpful than Peacock, Big band and Valentine. By the way Big Band is a bit OP in the end :/
 

fanghoul

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I like trying a bunch of different teams too. My main is currently a Parasite Weave Filia and Harlequin Cerebella to buff her, and the third member actually doesn't matter. We're working on getting our time to take out a full max score team down to under 20 seconds. I'm at 27 seconds at the moment.
 
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luckykhanh

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That's nice, you are too godly for me then :)) for the streak 25 above it always take me 1 minute and a half for these team. But yah my team are all silver, with just a few gold at lv 20. Hopefully I would have more time and level up my gold fighters
 

fanghoul

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Whoops, sorry, that was a little braggy of me. I was just super pleased to have finally broken 30 seconds at that moment.

Getting to a streak of 25 with only silver characters is really good!
 

Mlgproface

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I dislike how a bronze rerun still contributes as much FS as a untouchable if they have the same FS; because having a 1.7K epic sax will always be better than a 1.7K bloody valentine. should be that with one gold, a bronze would contribute like half or something like that
 

Fel

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I dislike how a bronze rerun still contributes as much FS as a untouchable if they have the same FS; because having a 1.7K epic sax will always be better than a 1.7K bloody valentine. should be that with one gold, a bronze would contribute like half or something like that
FS is calculated based on stats so if a rerun has the same FS as untouchable, they'll have similar stats. The difference between a gold and a bronze is just their stats so golds just end up having a higher FS at max level. Counting SAs for FS is a completely different can of worms though.
 

luckykhanh

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Whoops, sorry, that was a little braggy of me. I was just super pleased to have finally broken 30 seconds at that moment.

Getting to a streak of 25 with only silver characters is really good!
haha no bragging is good, that what we are playing the game for, and I also want to hear how others playing in their cases. 30 seconds actually requires a lot of combo and precision in hiting the enemy and I would like to get to that point as well. By the way do you have any suggestion to get all the gold fighters that are not included in the reward of frize fight? such as peacock ultraviolent.

But yah with the new system today streak 25 for silver is godlike, I could not make it that far. Leveling up gold now become much slower with this new system as we cannot match my lv 40 silver with lv 20 gold anymore for bonus experience to gold while having a decent match. PF is so challenging right now at the high-end tiers but at the same time quite dissappointing at the beggining because all my fighters are stronger than the first 4 tiers, and they practically earn nothing but scratch lol. Do you feel the same as well?
 

fanghoul

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I'm having mixed feelings about the new Prize Fight system. So far, I like that I'm actually decently challenged when I get over 20 wins in a row, and I am meeting a larger variety of teams than before. It does seem to tamp down on the absolute high score possible, which I guess doesn't matter much since it applies to everyone? I haven't actually been booted down to the bottom yet to find out how frustrating that is, but I've heard bad things. Earning less xp will definitely be a big minus.

Unfortunately I don't know a good way to get the characters you want in this game. I also wish I had an Ultraviolent.

Buying relics in groups of 10 is generally a good idea, since it gives you a bonus relic and a boosted chance to get a good character in the last one. The specific character relics can help get that one character you like, but you might benefit from just buying Premier Relics starting out, since that will net you more chances period to get a gold character, and let you crack open a Shard to Get relic sooner (not that Shard to Get relics have really been all that great for me)

If the character you want has an Origin Story, you can play that for character relics.
 

luckykhanh

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Ya
I'm having mixed feelings about the new Prize Fight system. So far, I like that I'm actually decently challenged when I get over 20 wins in a row, and I am meeting a larger variety of teams than before. It does seem to tamp down on the absolute high score possible, which I guess doesn't matter much since it applies to everyone? I haven't actually been booted down to the bottom yet to find out how frustrating that is, but I've heard bad things. Earning less xp will definitely be a big minus.

Unfortunately I don't know a good way to get the characters you want in this game. I also wish I had an Ultraviolent.

Buying relics in groups of 10 is generally a good idea, since it gives you a bonus relic and a boosted chance to get a good character in the last one. The specific character relics can help get that one character you like, but you might benefit from just buying Premier Relics starting out, since that will net you more chances period to get a gold character, and let you crack open a Shard to Get relic sooner (not that Shard to Get relics have really been all that great for me)

If the character you want has an Origin Story, you can play that for character relics.
Yah for me it sucks,because if I play my low tier fighters first,they have nothing for XP but I can save high end fighters for later, but still streak 16 is max atm because enemy are too strong. If I play strong characters first and save the low end for later, I cannot advance them far because enemy again gets strong too fast. In overall i have much less fights to level up my weak fighters, If I have more silver or gold the it would not be a problem, I just need to play some low end character at the beginning as I won't invest them anyway. Although I must admit some fighters in the mid tier get leveled up faster because I reach the strong FS team faster, and this is really a good setting for challenges indeed.

But now the Fight score for reward tier is unknown, I dont know how crazy people would play to first figure out the score reward tier, and this may ends up raising the PF points. I have 2.5mil now, but I really dont know when to stop lol.

Btw thanks for the tips, I will keep that in mind to get gold characters.