Characters How do we feel about Marie?

[Goofball]

How do we feel about Marie as a character? It’s been about 6 months since her release and I’ve been wanting to gauge how everyone else perceived her.

I’ll start this discussion off by saying I’m a bit underwhelmed by her. She’s kinda slow, her combos feel pretty basic + flowcharty, her CA is quite possibly the worst in the game, and her neutral is meh. In all honesty, she feels like a base game character compared to the characters that came before her (even other base game characters). I’ll expand on these points a bit further down.

A) Her CA: takes approx. 9-10 secs to fully charge. To be fair, it becomes faster the more bodies are on stage. Also, you need to be decently far away from your opponent to safely charge it and that’s only if they don’t have a projectile/long reaching special move that is nearly unreactable given it takes a solid 1-2 seconds after letting go from your charge before you can block again. The problem with this is, variants that rely on your partially/fully charge CA (Moody Mogus, Gust Buster, Snake Charmer) suffer and often times you’re playing bricks until you charge it.

Two smaller gripes I have with it are a) The payoff for using her offensive MA on two bodies doesn’t seem worth and b) what it does seems a bit underwhelming for how much of the match you might spend trying to charge it. The Revive is kinda ok, but why would I use Marie for a revive that takes about 10 secs. to charge when I can use an invested Valentine and get the same result in about 1-1.5 full combo? The Incinerate is cool but limits her Point ability and is relatively meh if you’re not facing a team of characters that can revive. The time spent charging would probably be better spent pressuring the opponent more.

B) Umbrella, Black Dahlia, and Fukua combos allow for more creativity and flexibility than Marie combos. Umbrella has multiple ways to restand, combo OTG, and loop resources in her toolkit + her hunger/bubble mechanic allows you to switch how you play her. Black Dahlia can also do this (- the bubble thing, but she has a sick gun arm tho) and her gun allows her to zone a bit + extend combos which makes labbing her a bit interesting. Marie…just kinda does her thing. She has a few situational restands, and 2 loops with 1 only really working in the corner on certain characters, and not much else. She was a boss character btw.

C) Marie’s Toolkit makes her neutral feel kinda awkward. Bellows Blast is unsafe ON HIT unless you either 1) use it in the corner on certain characters or 2) cancel immediately into Hilgard’s Howl (lol) or Carpal Pummel. Suction Obstruction is a cool command grab but the combos that come from it kinda suck, but at least she has a command grab. Hilgard’s Haymaker is decent zoning/combo, but her toolkit leaves me with one question, what is she good at doing? She’s not a point character, she doesn’t have great offensive tools, she’s not fast, her frame data is kinda meh, her zoning is kinda ok (PvE, in PVP I can def see her breaking guards constantly) she’s a decent res char if you don’t like Valentine for some reason…why play her?

One little thing before I end this off: Hilgard’s Howl is horrible.

I want to end this off by asking the reader a few questions:

1. Are you satisfied with Marie?
2. What would you change about her?
3. What role (on a team) does Marie play?
4. Am I going too hard on Marie?

 

[MLG_ALEX_420]

How do we feel about Marie as a character? It’s been about 6 months since her release and I’ve been wanting to gauge how everyone else perceived her.

I’ll start this discussion off by saying I’m a bit underwhelmed by her. She’s kinda slow, her combos feel pretty basic + flowcharty, her CA is quite possibly the worst in the game, and her neutral is meh. In all honesty, she feels like a base game character compared to the characters that came before her (even other base game characters). I’ll expand on these points a bit further down.

A) Her CA: takes approx. 9-10 secs to fully charge. To be fair, it becomes faster the more bodies are on stage. Also, you need to be decently far away from your opponent to safely charge it and that’s only if they don’t have a projectile/long reaching special move that is nearly unreactable given it takes a solid 1-2 seconds after letting go from your charge before you can block again. The problem with this is, variants that rely on your partially/fully charge CA (Moody Mogus, Gust Buster, Snake Charmer) suffer and often times you’re playing bricks until you charge it.

Two smaller gripes I have with it are a) The payoff for using her offensive MA on two bodies doesn’t seem worth and b) what it does seems a bit underwhelming for how much of the match you might spend trying to charge it. The Revive is kinda ok, but why would I use Marie for a revive that takes about 10 secs. to charge when I can use an invested Valentine and get the same result in about 1-1.5 full combo? The Incinerate is cool but limits her Point ability and is relatively meh if you’re not facing a team of characters that can revive. The time spent charging would probably be better spent pressuring the opponent more.

B) Umbrella, Black Dahlia, and Fukua combos allow for more creativity and flexibility than Marie combos. Umbrella has multiple ways to restand, combo OTG, and loop resources in her toolkit + her hunger/bubble mechanic allows you to switch how you play her. Black Dahlia can also do this (- the bubble thing, but she has a sick gun arm tho) and her gun allows her to zone a bit + extend combos which makes labbing her a bit interesting. Marie…just kinda does her thing. She has a few situational restands, and 2 loops with 1 only really working in the corner on certain characters, and not much else. She was a boss character btw.

C) Marie’s Toolkit makes her neutral feel kinda awkward. Bellows Blast is unsafe ON HIT unless you either 1) use it in the corner on certain characters or 2) cancel immediately into Hilgard’s Howl (lol) or Carpal Pummel. Suction Obstruction is a cool command grab but the combos that come from it kinda suck, but at least she has a command grab. Hilgard’s Haymaker is decent zoning/combo, but her toolkit leaves me with one question, what is she good at doing? She’s not a point character, she doesn’t have great offensive tools, she’s not fast, her frame data is kinda meh, her zoning is kinda ok (PvE, in PVP I can def see her breaking guards constantly) she’s a decent res char if you don’t like Valentine for some reason…why play her?

One little thing before I end this off: Hilgard’s Howl is horrible.

I want to end this off by asking the reader a few questions:

1. Are you satisfied with Marie?
2. What would you change about her?
3. What role (on a team) does Marie play?
4. Am I going too hard on Marie?

On PVP comp she is annoying to deal with. easy to play no skill, guard breaks pretty easily, her damage output is still high asf. I remembered when she first came out she was OP in PVP comp guard break like just with simple moves. I hope they nerf her damage again in PVP comp just a little bit and her blockbuster meter.

1. no because pvp comp
2. what I've stated
3. she is pretty much a all round attacker, defense, time staller.
4. not one bit, I want her nerfed.

Idc about pfs or anything like that she is fine there but pvp comp is a whole different story. Like she is good in PVP comp if used properly.

 

[SvenZ]

I honestly enjoy her. I don't think the comparison with Val is really fair, considering you don't need to use an ability slot for it, can revive 2 allies at once even if they're spread apart, and don't need to have BB meter Gain part of your stats. Plus, you can both incinerate and revive at the same time. Something unique only to her.

As far as general gameplay, I enjoy it. She offers a lot more than what other characters have. Lots of fun variants as well. Megalomaniac was arguably one of the worst diamonds, but she's pretty good now

If anything, ancient characters like Painwheel need tweaking far sooner than Marie will ever need.

 

[Goofball]

While I can somewhat agree that the comparison to Val has a few shortcomings, there a definitely a few things that are worth acknowledging: a) If you got to the point where you even need to revive 2 of your teammates, you’re in a pretty rough spot (especially since AI starts to ramp up once you lose a fighter), ideally you want to clean a match up with your Point character or at the very least not really need to revive. b) The Val comparison is supposed to be contextually next to how bad of a CA Marie has.

On its own, I’d argue it’s pretty bad if you have no bodies to incinerate/revive. When I think about other CA, they do something to contribute to the either the character or game state. For example:

Beowulf gains unblockable grabs, extra parts for different moves (Juggle, Airwulf, Lupines Pummel, Geatish Trepak, Wulfamania, Wulf Shoot/Grab, Max Distance Gigantic Arm) , d2 and Charge Attack has a more consistent wall bounce.

Squigly gains Wall Bounce on D2 (+ cool flash), more hits of g5, Sweep gains more hits and more range, makes Center Stage behave differently, more hits on BB3, Silver Chord gains more distance, more hits and combo-ability on Charge Attack.

Ms. Fortune is Ms. Fortune

When Robo-Fortune gets 2-3 headdrones her gameplan can go between zoning and using them further extend your combos.

Star Power greatly increases Annie’s combo-ability through Destruction Pillar, Re-Entry, and North Knuckle + stars of course. Crescent Cut can open up blocks (especially in PvP) and allow you to freely beatdown your opponent.

Meanwhile when there’s no bodies for Marie… she gains nothing.

Is her only decent to good role a Mid-Laner/Anchor? But if she’s better meant as a pseudo support, why do many of her SAs not seem to reflect that same sentiment? On point, she can take a bit to get started (10s CA btw) and even when she does get started it’s underwhelming. 2 Enrages is decent at least.

Also, nearly forgot to mention in the OG post, if you’re incinerating bodies 1 by 1 instead of waiting for two bodies to stack up, you’re taking even more time to stop your pressure to charge your CA, for potentially 15-20 secs, in a 3:00 game where every second counts.

To bring back the Val comparison for a bit, you get rewarded in damage and meter gain for your other blockbusters to revive a character and while it has it’s limitation (1 body per Forbidden Technique) and all it cost you was a bit of stat investment and 1 move slot. I’d take that over the clunky mess that is Marie’s CA, which I just tested in game and while the bodies don’t have to be right next to each other, they have to be pretty decently close to each other to get both revives off.


I do agree that I very rarely find myself playing Painwheel. Her along with Beowulf and Double (and some really bad, nearly useless moves like Butt Slam, Flesh Step, Ashes to Ashes, etc.) could use a tune up.

 

[MDude]

(and some really bad, nearly useless moves like Butt Slam, Flesh Step, Ashes to Ashes, etc.)

I give you Butt Slam, the start up for it is horrible and more often than not I've seen it used as a finisher (Ironically Double's version is the better of the two by having none of the problems of Bella's one), as someone who seems to be the only one that uses Ashes To Ashes I can say that the move is decent, you can use it to finish a wall combo, or to intercept if you time it right, and lastly Flesh Step while often considered the worst move in the game has actually redeemed himself a little by being able to overstep Medici Mousetrap and Peacock's George Bombs

 

[SvenZ]

I give you Butt Slam, the start up for it is horrible and more often than not I've seen it used as a finisher (Ironically Double's version is the better of the two by having none of the problems of Bella's one), as someone who seems to be the only one that uses Ashes To Ashes I can say that the move is decent, you can use it to finish a wall combo, or to intercept if you time it right, and lastly Flesh Step while often considered the worst move in the game has actually redeemed himself a little by being able to overstep Medici Mousetrap and Peacock's George Bombs

Butt Slam also has the benefit of being almost always guaranteed at max distance. The moment you start it up, the AI starts attacking, and Butt Slam beats pretty much any attack. It only sucks at close range. If it had 1 stack or armor or granted Deadeye as someone suggested, it would become a lot more favorable, even if all the current frame data remains the same

 

[SvenZ]

While I can somewhat agree that the comparison to Val has a few shortcomings, there a definitely a few things that are worth acknowledging: a) If you got to the point where you even need to revive 2 of your teammates, you’re in a pretty rough spot (especially since AI starts to ramp up once you lose a fighter), ideally you want to clean a match up with your Point character or at the very least not really need to revive. b) The Val comparison is supposed to be contextually next to how bad of a CA Marie has.

On its own, I’d argue it’s pretty bad if you have no bodies to incinerate/revive. When I think about other CA, they do something to contribute to the either the character or game state. For example:

Beowulf gains unblockable grabs, extra parts for different moves (Airwulf, Lupines Pummel, Geatish Trepak, Wulfamania, Wulf Shoot/Grab) , d2 and Charge Attack has a more consistent wall bounce.

Squigly gains Wall Bounce on D2 (+ cool flash), more hits of g5, Sweep gains more hits and more range, makes Center Stage behave differently, more hits on BB3, Silver Chord gains more distance, more hits and combo-ability on Charge Attack.

Ms. Fortune is Ms. Fortune

When Robo-Fortune gets 2-3 headdrones her gameplan can go between zoning and using them further extend your combos.

Star Power greatly increases Annie’s combo-ability through Destruction Pillar, Re-Entry, and North Knuckle + stars of course. Crescent Cut can open up blocks (especially in PvP) and allow you to freely beatdown your opponent.

Meanwhile when there’s no bodies for Marie… she gains nothing.

Is her only decent to good role a Mid-Laner/Anchor? But if she’s better meant as a pseudo support, why do many of her SAs not seem to reflect that same sentiment? On point, she can take a bit to get started (10s CA btw) and even when she does get started it’s underwhelming. 2 Enrages is decent at least.

Also, nearly forgot to mention in the OG post, if you’re incinerating bodies 1 by 1 instead of waiting for two bodies to stack up, you’re taking even more time to stop your pressure to charge your CA, for potentially 15-20 secs, in a 3:00 game where every second counts.

To bring back the Val comparison for a bit, you get rewarded in damage and meter gain for your other blockbusters to revive a character and while it has it’s limitation (1 body per Forbidden Technique) and all it cost you was a bit of stat investment and 1 move slot. I’d take that over the clunky mess that is Marie’s CA, which I just tested in game and while the bodies don’t have to be right next to each other, they have to be pretty decently close to each other to get both revives off.


I do agree that I very rarely find myself playing Painwheel. Her along with Beowulf and Double (and some really bad, nearly useless moves like Butt Slam, Flesh Step, Ashes to Ashes, etc.) could use a tune up.

I both agree and disagree with some of your points. Beo still needs to perform 3 grabs in order to access hype mode, which can take as long as or even longer than a Marie charge, depending on build.

Again going back to Val, Forbidden Technique also has a significantly smaller effect box than Marie's revive. Marie's revive can be performed at a safe distance without any risks of being punished. As it's not an ability, it's not countered by Blockbuster Disable, BB Meter Drain or affected by Power Surge, giving it a lot more flexibility. Thanks to her Marquee abilities, her revive also provides either a lot more health and also armor, or BB Meter + Enrage if used to incinerate a body

The main thing I agree with is that it's rather annoying that certain variants gain a benefit while you're charged, and immediately lose it when you use up a charge. I understand the trade off aspect, but for certain effects it's rather underwhelming or cumbersome.

It would be cool if her charge was separated into 2 parts. 50% charge, where you can revive or incinerate only 1 body. And 100% charge where there's no limit. And all charged based Signature Abilities to reflect that. Have a lesser effect at 50% and a stronger one at 100%. But then again, this opens up a whole new can of worms, where her revive will be significantly faster and more annoying to deal with. Likewise with AI incinerating bodies almost instantly.

 

[Goofball]

Appreciate the good discussion discussion y’all.

I’ll get a few points of contention out of the way.

…as someone who seems to be the only one that uses Ashes To Ashes I can say that the move is decent, you can use it to finish a wall combo, or to intercept if you time it right, and lastly Flesh Step while often considered the worst move in the game has actually redeemed himself a little by being able to overstep Medici Mousetrap and Peacock's George Bombs

I’m gonna come off pretty strong and say there is almost no reason to use Ashes to Ashes, it’s arguably meme use territory. While it has the benefit of being a SM in a game that has + SM Cooldown and Harle Support, you are SO much better off using literally any other move especially considering how awful the endlag on that move is.

Reduced endlag/making it cancellable into other BBs would boost its usability greatly. (Also since a good amount of her moveset gives a good amount of Wither, maybe replace Wither with Quietus?)

I actually never considered using Flesh Step like that. At least that upgrades it from unusable to niche. I’ve seen some proposals to either shake off debuffs or gain buffs or gain evasion as a way to buff its usability. I have no real thoughts on the matter other than something being better than nothing.

Butt Slam also has the benefit of being almost always guaranteed at max distance. The moment you start it up, the AI starts attacking, and Butt Slam beats pretty much any attack. It only sucks at close range. If it had 1 stack or armor or granted Deadeye as someone suggested, it would become a lot more favorable, even if all the current frame data remains the same

Butt Slam is a really rough move, both from far range and close range as when that move hits your block, it has a considerable amount of endlag that leaves Bella open for a free hard punish. I’ve seen some proposals on how to change it ranging from making it unblockable (which is kinda nuts tbh), to doing Guard Break(s), to giving Bella DeadEye and giving her reduced startup. I find myself agreeing more along the lines maybe reduced startup + reduced endlag + Guard Break.

Back onto the topic of Marie:

Beo still needs to perform 3 grabs into order to access hype mode, which can take as long as or even longer than a Marie charge, depending on build.

The difference is a few things, 1) 3 Wulf Shoots take about 6 seconds. 2 Wulf Shoots, 1 Taunt is about 4-5 seconds + Haste. 2) Going for Wulf Shoots/Grabs both upclose and mid range is a lot safer than Marie’s CA charge. 3) Beowulf’s Moveset changes allowing for more guaranteed damage through extended combos/loops. 4) There’s a lot more value to be gained by using Hype Mode vs. Marie’s Revive/Incinerate. Even if you charge Marie’s CA, if she’s point she gains nothing until a body is on the board. And even when a body is on the board, you have to choose between 1 incinerate (which means you’ll have to spend more time recharging her bad CA) or wait until you beat 2 characters to get a dual Incinerate off, which means you spent 2/3 of the game with a brick of a CA. Hype Mode is useful at every point in the match + grabs do damage which is always better than having to stop putting on pressure just to charge your CA.

Again going back to Val, Forbidden Technique also has a significantly smaller effect box than Marie's revive. Marie's revive can be performed at a safe distance without any risks of being punished. As it's not an ability, it's not countered by Blockbuster Disable, BB Meter Drain or affected by Power Surge, giving it a lot more flexibility. Thanks to her Marquee abilities, her revive also provides either a lot more health and also armor, or BB Meter + Enrage if used to incinerate a body

I definitely should’ve acknowledged these shortcomings with Val for sure. This argument can be (somewhat) bypassed with Valentine’s PA, as many Valentine SA’s allow you to get Heavy Regen relatively easily + her CA synchronizes well enough with her PA that if you take scratch damage, it can help contribute to her PA charge + her MA, ICU, ALSO synchronizes well with her PA especially considering how many moves and abilities can inflict debuffs. (Also, her taunt.)


I do still kinda wish there was more to her MA, as 2 timeless enrages for a 15-20 sec investment that goes away on tag-out + no chance to regain them if you were to tag back in is…rough, and while 1 perma stack of armor + more HP on revive isn’t too bad, I’ve yet to have a scenario where a) she was allowed to get a revive off (unless she were paired with self revivers like Plot Twisted or Death Wish. Sidebar: Pre-Patch Death Wish + Megalomaniac was PEAK awfulness) and b) where the armor made a significant difference in DMG output against it.

Also I must ask, how often is it that you are losing 2/3 characters in your team? Personally, I often find myself getting the job done with about the first 1-2 chars, which means that unless the AI goes haywire, the most value I’m getting out of a revive is usually 1 and we also can’t forget about the fact that AI usually starts to become increasingly aggressive/difficult once they’ve taken out a fighter.

The main thing I agree with is that it's rather annoying that certain variants gain a benefit while you're charged, and immediately lose it when you use up a charge. I understand the trade off aspect, but for certain effects it's rather underwhelming or cumbersome.

It would be cool if her charge was separated into 2 parts. 50% charge, where you can revive or incinerate only 1 body. And 100% charge where there's no limit. And all charged based Signature Abilities to reflect that. Have a lesser effect at 50% and a stronger one at 100%. But then again, this opens up a whole new can of worms, where her revive will be significantly faster and more annoying to deal with. Likewise with AI incinerating bodies almost instantly.

To add on to the first part, yea. Sometimes you have to pick between holding a charge indefinitely or using the charge to clear the board of annoying bodies, just to lose your investment.

To add on to the second part: it’d be cool if there was a moveset/kit buff similar to other “charge” characters like Beo/Squigly like maybe moves that don’t combo super well can gain new properties to do so or maybe Hilgard’s Howl can stop being trash outside of corner loops, or potentially adding more hits to preexisting moves or maybe when she charges 50% she can inflict Quietus or make the debuffs in her kit last longer or maybe she could transform or maybe she could use her shadows and/or other skeleton soldiers. I kinda sound a bit overly optimistic but after Black Dahlia’s AMAZING debut, I was hyped for Marie’s release to the game and it feels like more could’ve been put into her, especially when you look at her cover art and promo material, but maybe I expected too much idk.

Personally, I’d rather have her CA be a little more annoying on DEF if it means I can actually enjoy playing and actually using her CA more often.

Hot Take: Her CA charge should be faster. Beo’s most optimal build gives him access to Hype Mode in 4-6 seconds while being safe, Squigly’s charge takes about 2-3 seconds to get a whole host of benefits while also being pretty safe, Marie spends 1-2/3 of the match with a 10s unsafe to charge CA that doesn’t have much mileage on it and it’s laggy on top of that. The longest CA full charge in the game is Annie’s by far but at least she gains a super powered, high combo moveset when she chooses to let it rip + the option to turn off Star Power to conserve it.

Also, please for the love of Christ Almighty, please lower the endlag of her CA I am begging on my hands and knees, PLEASE. Her endlag is so abysmal that if you approach her AI while it’s charging it will 100% always try to preemptively g5 you, which just goes to show that even the AI knows it’s bad LMAO.

 

[MLG_ALEX_420]

While I can somewhat agree that the comparison to Val has a few shortcomings, there a definitely a few things that are worth acknowledging: a) If you got to the point where you even need to revive 2 of your teammates, you’re in a pretty rough spot (especially since AI starts to ramp up once you lose a fighter), ideally you want to clean a match up with your Point character or at the very least not really need to revive. b) The Val comparison is supposed to be contextually next to how bad of a CA Marie has.

On its own, I’d argue it’s pretty bad if you have no bodies to incinerate/revive. When I think about other CA, they do something to contribute to the either the character or game state. For example:

Beowulf gains unblockable grabs, extra parts for different moves (Airwulf, Lupines Pummel, Geatish Trepak, Wulfamania, Wulf Shoot/Grab) , d2 and Charge Attack has a more consistent wall bounce.

Squigly gains Wall Bounce on D2 (+ cool flash), more hits of g5, Sweep gains more hits and more range, makes Center Stage behave differently, more hits on BB3, Silver Chord gains more distance, more hits and combo-ability on Charge Attack.

Ms. Fortune is Ms. Fortune

When Robo-Fortune gets 2-3 headdrones her gameplan can go between zoning and using them further extend your combos.

Star Power greatly increases Annie’s combo-ability through Destruction Pillar, Re-Entry, and North Knuckle + stars of course. Crescent Cut can open up blocks (especially in PvP) and allow you to freely beatdown your opponent.

Meanwhile when there’s no bodies for Marie… she gains nothing.

Is her only decent to good role a Mid-Laner/Anchor? But if she’s better meant as a pseudo support, why do many of her SAs not seem to reflect that same sentiment? On point, she can take a bit to get started (10s CA btw) and even when she does get started it’s underwhelming. 2 Enrages is decent at least.

Also, nearly forgot to mention in the OG post, if you’re incinerating bodies 1 by 1 instead of waiting for two bodies to stack up, you’re taking even more time to stop your pressure to charge your CA, for potentially 15-20 secs, in a 3:00 game where every second counts.

To bring back the Val comparison for a bit, you get rewarded in damage and meter gain for your other blockbusters to revive a character and while it has it’s limitation (1 body per Forbidden Technique) and all it cost you was a bit of stat investment and 1 move slot. I’d take that over the clunky mess that is Marie’s CA, which I just tested in game and while the bodies don’t have to be right next to each other, they have to be pretty decently close to each other to get both revives off.


I do agree that I very rarely find myself playing Painwheel. Her along with Beowulf and Double (and some really bad, nearly useless moves like Butt Slam, Flesh Step, Ashes to Ashes, etc.) could use a tune up.

brother, beowulf is actually good if used properly but I will say he does need a moveset rework because he is a one trick pony comboer.https://sendspark.com/share/6eb0bgj231s6fs9zatvz0vxqsnseut2u

 

[MLG_ALEX_420]

brother, beowulf is actually good if used properly but I will say he does need a moveset rework because he is a one trick pony comboer.https://sendspark.com/share/6eb0bgj231s6fs9zatvz0vxqsnseut2u

While I can somewhat agree that the comparison to Val has a few shortcomings, there a definitely a few things that are worth acknowledging: a) If you got to the point where you even need to revive 2 of your teammates, you’re in a pretty rough spot (especially since AI starts to ramp up once you lose a fighter), ideally you want to clean a match up with your Point character or at the very least not really need to revive. b) The Val comparison is supposed to be contextually next to how bad of a CA Marie has.

On its own, I’d argue it’s pretty bad if you have no bodies to incinerate/revive. When I think about other CA, they do something to contribute to the either the character or game state. For example:

Beowulf gains unblockable grabs, extra parts for different moves (Juggle, Airwulf, Lupines Pummel, Geatish Trepak, Wulfamania, Wulf Shoot/Grab, Max Distance Gigantic Arm) , d2 and Charge Attack has a more consistent wall bounce.

Squigly gains Wall Bounce on D2 (+ cool flash), more hits of g5, Sweep gains more hits and more range, makes Center Stage behave differently, more hits on BB3, Silver Chord gains more distance, more hits and combo-ability on Charge Attack.

Ms. Fortune is Ms. Fortune

When Robo-Fortune gets 2-3 headdrones her gameplan can go between zoning and using them further extend your combos.

Star Power greatly increases Annie’s combo-ability through Destruction Pillar, Re-Entry, and North Knuckle + stars of course. Crescent Cut can open up blocks (especially in PvP) and allow you to freely beatdown your opponent.

Meanwhile when there’s no bodies for Marie… she gains nothing.

Is her only decent to good role a Mid-Laner/Anchor? But if she’s better meant as a pseudo support, why do many of her SAs not seem to reflect that same sentiment? On point, she can take a bit to get started (10s CA btw) and even when she does get started it’s underwhelming. 2 Enrages is decent at least.

Also, nearly forgot to mention in the OG post, if you’re incinerating bodies 1 by 1 instead of waiting for two bodies to stack up, you’re taking even more time to stop your pressure to charge your CA, for potentially 15-20 secs, in a 3:00 game where every second counts.

To bring back the Val comparison for a bit, you get rewarded in damage and meter gain for your other blockbusters to revive a character and while it has it’s limitation (1 body per Forbidden Technique) and all it cost you was a bit of stat investment and 1 move slot. I’d take that over the clunky mess that is Marie’s CA, which I just tested in game and while the bodies don’t have to be right next to each other, they have to be pretty decently close to each other to get both revives off.


I do agree that I very rarely find myself playing Painwheel. Her along with Beowulf and Double (and some really bad, nearly useless moves like Butt Slam, Flesh Step, Ashes to Ashes, etc.) could use a tune up.

also other facts about Beowulf, regular CA will not wallbounce only will wallbounce if Beo has hype. Beo by far has the potential to become the best character in the game if the devs made some reworks and adding certain things for Beo.

BETA Beowulf Reworks: Like Ms Fortunes Head Juggle ability. Recall would just be Beowulfs way of having Hype via Cheap Pop (also Cheap Pop can be used in a combo as well). Cheap Pop>G1-G5>Launcher>Juggle>D1>D2 (Stagger)>D1>D2>Chair>D1>D2>Airwulf. Zoom and Feline Allergies would be Hurting Hurl (Chair toss) Zoom would be (M) and Allergies will be (H). While Beowulf is Chairless Cheap pop is disabled and now when he comes close to his chair he can regrab via CA (Just like how ms fortune gets her head back). Once regaining his chair he gets his cheap pop and Hurting Hurls abilities back. Also be including a new special move called Take a seat which sends his chair from the opponents side and comes back to him. Another Special will also be Alpha Clinch which will cause Beo to go into a Grab Stance. Also another thing is if you hold G1 for long it will cause the Mic Drop instead of Grendel Flex as GF will now be considered a Special Move rather than CA. Mic drop can be used once in the combo but if used again during this Mic drop will cause the opponent to Fall animation. Buff Hype Mode, (this one was the hardest to think because of the character ability for hype is gone) SO, Beos newly redesigned for hype is like squiggly's dragon charge. Instead of just 3 now its buffed to 6. Also Wulf Taunt will no longer be a Special Move but will be used as a prestige ability in PVP comp.

Here is a combo list:
(Without Chair) Uses 6 Max Hypes:
G1(hold for mic drop causes to build 1 hype meter, if already at max it will not build any more)-G5>Launcher>Juggle>(Da Grendel Killa will not activate unless you swipe up and if swiped up it will use a Hype Charge)>D1>D2 Uses Hype Charge (Stagger animation only once in any combo)>G1-G5>Launcher>Juggle>D1>D2 Uses Hype Charge>Chair>D1>D2 Uses Hype Charge(if far away you can use Take a seat) Take a seat Uses Charge>D1>D2 Uses Hype Charge>(uses 1 hype meter) >D1>D2 Uses Hype Charge> Uses Hype Charge Airwulf.

(With Chair) Uses 6 Max Hypes, Another combo route is:
D1>D2 Uses Charge (if no hype is available, D2 would just be a regular D2) (stagger animation once on any given combo) D1> G1 (Mic Drop)-G5>Geatish Trepak Uses Hype Charge>D1>D2 Uses Hype Charge(using lightweights again on corner) > D1>D2 Uses Hype Charge>D1>D2 Uses Hype Charge>Hurting Hurl M (which causes the opponent to go really high)>Juggle (Gains Charge)>D1>D2 Uses Hype>D1>D2 Uses Hype>D1>Chair> Uses Charge Airwulf.

With Alpha Clinch Max 6 Hypes: D1>G1-5>Launcher>Juggle>D1>D2 Uses 1 hype (Stagger)>D1>G1-G5>Alpha Clinch>Wulf Press Slam Swipe Left(Uses 1 hype)>Wulf Press Slam Swipe Right (uses 1 hype)>Da Grendel Killa (uses 1 Hype)>Hurting Hurl H>D1>D2 Uses 1 Hype>D1>Airwulf Uses 1 hype.

The animation would be wonky but if Beo has only 1 charge and used his Slam Swipe Left then the opponent will roll back to the right ride of the stage close to beo and have invincibility frames so beo doesn't abuse frame data. I hope this made sense lol but I hope you guys know what I'm saying

With BB3 3 WulfMoonsault while building hype:

D1>G1(MIC DROP)-G5>Launcher>Juggle>D1>D2 (stagger Uses Hype)>G1-G5>Launcher>Juggle (gains 1 hype)>D1>D2 Uses 1 hype>Chair>D1>D2>Wulfmoonsault.

Without Hype:

G1(MIC DROP Gains Hype)-G5>Launcher>Juggle (Gains Hype)>D1>D2 (Stagger)>G1-G5>Launcher>Juggle (Gains Hype)>D1>D2 Uses Hype>Corner use Hurting Hurl M>Juggle (gains hype)>D1>Take a seat uses 1 hype>D1>D2 Uses Hype>Airwulf without the hype.

Tell me what you guys think because all of this is still BETA Not official though but hopefully.

 

[ZeoW]

With Squigly stats (low ATK and above average HP), I'm guessing Marie is supposed to be played with a team comp in mind, rather than as a solo fighter. Just taking a look at her variants here, there's a theme of offensive support, similar to Peacock. But unlike Peacock who prefers to stay in the bench, Marie seems to want to have a more active role. Her CA, Mortuary Charge, is a big example of this.

Now the question is, why would I use Marie when some other variants/characters/fighter can defeat all three opponents as a solo fighter? And that's.. a fair point. Right now, there's not a lot of space for Marie to occupy that other characters can't do on their own. Getting rid of dead bodies are nice, but Squigly's PA does that far easier and faster. Revival is nice too, but as you mentioned, Val's PA and blockbusters can do that as well. Quietus is a cool debuff, but it's only a matter of time before the debuff spreads to other characters as well.

However, with the two support variants we got recently (Hell's Belle and Palace Plunderer), a proper team-comp based playstyle seems to be something the devs are pushing. And in this sphere, I could definitely see Marie slotting in to provide a lot of utility in a single character. But until we reach that point, I think one slight tweak to improve her viability and niche would be to slightly buff the time it takes for Mortuary Charge to fill up since a good chunk of her variants rely on it for their effects.

 

[Goofball]

With Squigly stats (low ATK and above average HP), I'm guessing Marie is supposed to be played with a team comp in mind, rather than as a solo fighter. Just taking a look at her variants here, there's a theme of offensive support, similar to Peacock. But unlike Peacock who prefers to stay in the bench, Marie seems to want to have a more active role. Her CA, Mortuary Charge, is a big example of this.

Now the question is, why would I use Marie when some other variants/characters/fighter can defeat all three opponents as a solo fighter? And that's.. a fair point. Right now, there's not a lot of space for Marie to occupy that other characters can't do on their own. Getting rid of dead bodies are nice, but Squigly's PA does that far easier and faster. Revival is nice too, but as you mentioned, Val's PA and blockbusters can do that as well. Quietus is a cool debuff, but it's only a matter of time before the debuff spreads to other characters as well.

However, with the two support variants we got recently (Hell's Belle and Palace Plunderer), a proper team-comp based playstyle seems to be something the devs are pushing. And in this sphere, I could definitely see Marie slotting in to provide a lot of utility in a single character. But until we reach that point, I think one slight tweak to improve her viability and niche would be to slightly buff the time it takes for Mortuary Charge to fill up since a good chunk of her variants rely on it for their effects.

Yep. Also, keep in mind there’s only two reasons to Incinerate a body: a) stop character revival and/or b) extend a combo.

There’s 2ish problems that kinda present themselves.

1. There aren’t many variants/characters that can even revive characters (much less if you’re considering meta picks).

I did some counting and excluding Valentine, and technically Marie (“technically” because while the AI could theoretically use Marie’s CA to revive, why would you let her charge her laggy and easily punishable CA???) the amount of variants that can self revive or revive are:

Technically (meaning through weird/non consistent means like RNG Buff Gainer, Blessing, “If a Hit would be fatal”, Buff Stealer) - 32/245

Real (explicit self/other revive) - 8/245

Meta/Actually Viable/Most Common - 2/245

Tech + Real Including Valentine and Marie - 48/245

Meta Including Valentine and Marie - 13/245

(EDIT) Variants that gain effects from near dead bodies excluding Squigly - 1/245

(EDIT) Variants that gains effects near dead bodies including Squigly - 15/245

(EDIT) Meta Variants that gain effects near dead bodies including Squigly - 4/245

Keep in mind that many of these self revivers are better suited to be attackers. So, you’re not going against most of them on DEF. (I don’t mean Shadow Puppet, to be clear.) Also, most variants that gain effects near dead bodies are just PA’d Squiglys.

2. Incinerate as a combo extender isn’t even that good outside of vs. light weight characters.

Also, I’m curious as to what you think about the fact that there’s two big parts of the game where her CA is essentially useless, even when going up against revive characters: When there’s no bodies on the board (At the very beginning of the game and post-Incinerate. Outside of an SA that benefits from just having a charge, why charge it???? Charge characters like Squigly and Beowulf and Button characters like Umbrella, Ms. + Robo Fortune, Black Dahlia, etc. usually have many toolkit benefits outside of SA benefits to use their CA, yet Marie, a new character and previous boss monster btw, gets 0 benefits outside of a situationally useful CA that’s arguably one of if not the worst in the game.)

 

[SvenZ]

1. There aren’t many variants/characters that can even revive characters (much less if you’re considering meta picks).

You should also keep in mind variants who benefit while standing near a dead body or trigger their effect when an ally stands on their dead body, i.e. Squigly. The incinerate also deals with that

 

[Goofball]

You should also keep in mind variants who benefit while standing near a dead body or trigger their effect when an ally stands on their dead body, i.e. Squigly. The incinerate also deals with that

You’re right, def a bit of an oversight, lemme edit.