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Fights Make team affecting signature abilities stack

Discussion in 'Feedback & Suggestions' started by moisterrific, Feb 21, 2018.

  1. moisterrific

    moisterrific Well-Known Member

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    It would be more fun if every fighter who has a signature ability that affects all teammates stacked just like how two Pea Shooters can stack their projectile damage bonus if you have 2 on the team. It would allow for a more interesting meta to exist. Imagine how fun it would be if having 2 Understudy on the team supporting Harlequin to easily counter tanky opponents.

    I don’t see why having 2 or more Pea Shooters can work when every other fighter whose SA affects teammates can’t.
     
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  2. vucaar

    vucaar Active Member

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    Sounds good on paper, but these can motivate to the players to make a team of 2 Gray Matter Cerebella, 3 Harlequin Cerebella, 2 or 3 Heavy Reign Parasoul, 2 Icy Hot Valentine......... for example an this could be annoying and repetitive. The teams of 3 Headstrong Cerebella or 3 Big Top Cerebella are enough, at least for me, but I don't know if you have more ideas.
     
  3. moisterrific

    moisterrific Well-Known Member

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    My idea would enable a more diverse and interesting meta than the current repetitive Wulfsbane / Harlequin / Epic Sax crap that everyone is tired of seeing.

    It’s more about the fun teams players can assemble if SA stacked rather than how potentially annoying some opponents can be. Because the game at this point is thinking of fresh ways to win. Since winning every fight is pretty much guaranteed when the AI is so easy and predictable.

    It’s repetitive enough now I can just use my strongest Harlequin ever and easily win every fight. But things felt interesting again when I started playing PF with 2 Pea Shooters and a moderately upgraded Untouchable. Just imagine how more fun if I can play a team like 2 Understudy & Headstrong, or 2 Icy Hot and Bassline, etc.
     
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  4. TonyPartridge30

    TonyPartridge30 Well-Known Member

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    I feel like the game should favor diversity over particular metas. I’m not sure this idea would be healthy, because while some combinations would be novel and interesting, there are certain combos that would just be too darn effective and become the new “norm” that you see in high streak PFs. I would rather see fighters get reworked so that each is both fun to use and viable.

    Maybe Pea Shooter effects stack because the number of projectile moves in the total move pool is relatively small? So the justification is that its Unlikely to have a team that’s 100% projectile.
     
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  5. moisterrific

    moisterrific Well-Known Member

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    Allowing SA stacking would make the meta more diverse. Since the fighters required for SA stacking have a lower max FS and in theory you’d see a lot less of the same teams over and over. What SA stacking does is make the lead damage carry hella strong but the trade off is you end up with 2 weaker supporters on the team that are always much easier to beat.



    As a matter of fact, the number of throw based moves are about the same as projectile moves. So allowing SA stacking of 2x Understudy on the team wouldn’t make it as overpowered as you’d think.

     
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  6. vucaar

    vucaar Active Member

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    I can see your point clearly now, but I just can't get out of my head the idea of the teams that can become the new "Wulfsbane-Harlequin-Epic Sax" team like you said, seeing on the top of the all gold prizes fights (even seeing as the three posible teams you can fight against). I'm agree that the game needs new forms to win and the suggestion you made maybe give more relevance and use to the forgotten characters (or the "bad SA characters" if you say so) and I understand that you only search new strategies or team structures, but the bad side of this is the chance to see always a "model team" in prize fights and increase the copying.

    Anyway, I have some silly examples and I want you to answer my doubts (in case this become true):

    If I made a team of 2 Immoral Fiber, Do you let to stack the ability of regen (not the damage ability)?
    If I made a team of 2 Heavy Reign and 1 Scrub, Can all the SA's activate or apply and become a super meter gain team or not? and
    What about a team of 2 Sheltered+any character that trigger her or his SA dealing a Critical Hit?
     
  7. Luke

    Luke Well-Known Member

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    I like both of your points, and I cant make up my mind if this is a good direction or not, but I'm at the moment that I need diversity so bad i'd take anything ANYTHING
     
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  8. Psyche

    Psyche Moderator
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    I think before we start piling features on top and overblowing everyone's capabilities we should first revise this list. While I don't doubt that it's wrong as you probably dug it out from the game's files yourself and touched it up a bit, perhaps we should reconsider some of the gear affected. For example, I struggle to understand how Parasoul's tag-in is a throw when I have only ever seen it collide with the opponent, and I don't quite see why Silent Scope counts as a projectile when no projectile is ever visible. Hmm, maybe that is a weak example as I suppose one could argue that a bullet is a projectile whether you can see it or not. Then how about the first segment of Argus Agony, and all of Theonite Beam? Lasers are continuous. If I shine a light for my cat to play with, I am not shooting it with projectiles. Perhaps what makes me uneasy is that not all of the 'throws' involve throwing anything. What if they were to be labelled as 'grabs' instead?

    Of course, you are also aware that Prize Fight teams are entered based on combined Fighter Score where the highest total FS team of three used by a player in any one Prize Fight is the one that will represent that player in that Prize Fight. There is some wiggle room, as there is a threshold of 10% difference between the strongest ever team and latest entered team that allows the representative team to be adjusted within bounds. So if I was to enter a Prize Fight initially with the sole intention of racking up the highest PF score possible within a short time and therefore used a team of three fully levelled and skill maxed Harlequins, I could then decide I was bored and change my team to a projectile-based carry accompanied by two Peashooters (maybe silver, maybe mid-level gold, highly unlikely to be two maxed golds) and however much fun I might have had, the 3xHarle team will still be what other people will see and fight when I come up as an option in PFs.

    Overall I think we should wait for the whole PF overhaul before we demand new/alternative features on the basis that PFs are boring. Also please correct me if there is any kind of definitive proof floating about that states otherwise, but what if Peashooter's stacking is anomalous and unintentional? Is there no possibility at all that it isn't supposed to stack, and that this is in actuality a bug in need of addressing?


    Are you sure this is not in effect already? As two fighters from one team cannot die at the same time, Immoral Fibre's Signature Ability would activate on two or three separate occasions with each death, so that would be different instances of healing and so not really stacking into one. I have never used two Immoral Fibres in one team, though, so I'm just guessing.
     
    #8 Psyche, Feb 23, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2018
  9. TRIX

    TRIX Member

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    I'm with Moist.
    I come from Overwatch, so I'm gonna speak in terms of that.
    Basically everyone hated the tripple tank meta where you needed: Ana, Zarya, Roadhog, and Reinhardt. It was used in every tournament and all that jazz, since then Ana has been nerfed and the game rebalanced to allow different metas.
    People are really happy with that aspect of the game now since it allows tons of different metas, you could do quad tank or one tank if you wanted(though tripple tank is considered strongest, the others are at minimum viable in certain situations).
    People freaked out with millions of views the first time Sombra was used in a tournament.
    Basically at root a game's a game and people play it to have fun, not to stick to the same thing and go through the motions--despite wanting to play something else, gameplay is always valued over statistics(but making statistically more than one meta helps a lot).
    No one's gonna be sad if those changes go through, y'know? People might be sad about a "double peashooter+ untouchable/UV" uprising or whatever meta but no one would want to go back to the "harle/bigband/beo" meta because the first is moreso a cool strat people use than something they HAVE to pick.
    If you guys are still worried about some sort of new support meta coming in then chillax cuz it's a buff for your enemies as well as yourself. It's all just about synergies, you're not going to be facing off against just one speciffic team each time once the defensive teams come out since there are tons of viable combinations that work for different people's playstyles.
    Personally Surgeon General+Robocopy+Primed would be what I'd go for! :D
     
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  10. TRIX

    TRIX Member

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    Maybes the difference is if it extends out from the actual character model or not? Hitboxes n' all but don't quote me on it.
     
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  11. Psyche

    Psyche Moderator
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    Yep. In summary what I'm trying to say is that we should let the developers get through what's already on their plate, then once we've settled into the new system with the manually selected defence teams we should re-evaluate and go from there as a community.

    That could be a possible explanation for the lists, and it would be logical if true, but I personally think the Hidden Variable devs had to sit down and label each move themselves as non of these qualities matter in SG2E, and they may have made one or two mistakes or implemented the label to one move but another move accidentally inherited the label as well. For example, Parasoul's entry motorcycle is graphically very similar to Egret Moto and travels at the same sort of speed so maybe it got the attribute that way.
    Oh. I'm afraid I quoted you. :eek:
     
    #11 Psyche, Feb 23, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2018
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  12. TRIX

    TRIX Member

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    I KNEW IT! I KNEW WE DIDNT HAVE TO DO QUOTES TO RESPOND--why did I forget that.
    Hm anyways yea true about the wait thing but hey the community opinion exists here now, you're right that we should just let it settle rather than making demands.
     
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  13. Small Band

    Small Band Member

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    Could photons be projectiles?
     
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  14. Psyche

    Psyche Moderator
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    I did consider that, but I don't think subatomic particles of relative zero mass really count, and even if they were, it's all theoretical so I could just say I don't believe in them. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
     
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  15. Fel

    Fel wuf
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    We've voiced concerns about stacking SAs for a while. I don't mind if some of them don't stack, I'd just prefer if the wording was touched up to make that more obvious.
    Harlequin is already a very prominent fighter in PFs, having her SA stack would just mean buffing top tier PF fights even more. Some weaker fighters like Understudy might benefit from having the SA be stackable though.
    There's other problems with the wording, such as Harlequin's SA applying to herself, while Inkling's SA doesn't count herself even though they both use the term "teammate".

    I think most of the move categories are directly translated over from SG2E, so I don't see a big problem with keeping those as is.
     
  16. Psyche

    Psyche Moderator
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    Right, I agree with most of that. The point I was making is that to say enabling the stacking of team-wide SAs will encourage diversity in PFs is unfortunately an invalid argument as that is just not how the system works. Honestly, I'm not sure if I'd be too fussed if it went either way; I'm sure I'd learn to roll with it, but it's just not the kind of change the game urgently needs right now. Perhaps slightly further down the line.
    The categories, however, I will persist with. Some of the moves seem nonsensical by their assignment. This is something that practical logic, not necessarily coding knowhow, should be able to determine, and it would greatly improve transparency for those players who do not participate in the community and hence will never come here to find the detailed list of what technically qualifies as a throw or a projectile according to the programming of the game. Also, and this is a genuine question because I'd like to learn more, but why would the categories even need to exist in SG2E? Maybe projectiles I can sort of understand for the sake of Cerebella's reflect skill, but there's nothing I can really think of that absolutely all of the throws in the list have in common. Not all of them are escapable, are they?
     
  17. vucaar

    vucaar Active Member

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    Ok, maybe I haven't made the right comments or didn't use the correct words.
    I'm not totally disagree with Moisterrific idea, even I said the idea sounds good on paper but I'm a little afraid about the team structure on future if the idea becomes true. I want to say, to resume, I imagined the worst scenario.
    Your intentions aren't bad, I like the idea about to made new forms to win and give more important role to unused or forgotten fighters (because they aren't powerful if we talk about the FS number) on the prize fights (to fight against to the top teams generally), this is the best point on the pros and cons about the suggestion that Moisterrific made (I want to believe) because you would have the chance to think more about your fighters and build teams with a really nice dynamic (refreshing the concept and retrieve some fun to the game).

    Maybe my greatest mistake is the No-RPG perspective that I have when I'm playing the game, I'm only focus on had a character that has the possibility to take meter when I enter on the hard Prize Fights (around 12th streak if I'm not wrong), this is why I have a Valentine and two Eliza as a top fighters (and sure, the classic Harlequin), so I don't think much about the structure of my team, I just want to reach and beat the best players with my favourite characters, at least on this version (but I couldn't yet).

    My main preoccupation is a "what if" situation. Ok, I know already that the idea won't change the top teams because all the matchmaking is about the FS score, but what about the teams before the top teams? (I realized thanks to you that the Harlequin-Wulfsbane and Epic Sax is the classic team), if you found a really effective team or meta like you siad, some players will want to use too and the teams available to fight will start to fill the same team structure and finally you will start to find the same team before the top classic team and turn the game even more repetitive.

    To conclude I want you to know that I understand the game (specially to top players) is on a "stuck situation" and turns repetitive too but even with this feeling I think that, on the current situation, there would be more variations on team builds than if the idea you propose become a reality.

    P.S.: I never played Overwatch so it cost me a lot to understand.
    P.S.2: The post turns cosmic when you start to talk about projectiles.
     
    #17 vucaar, Feb 23, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2018
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  18. Luke

    Luke Well-Known Member

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    When was there a talk about another FS over haul? If it’s something the devs are thinking seriously about, I’m all for that.
    Edit
    I mean, I’m getting impatient here but if the FP/pz team mech can change in four to five months I think I can wait. Then we can look into the stacking( let’s be honest we got lots of ideas for sa but to me stacking is easier for players to get use to, maybe).
     
    #18 Luke, Feb 24, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2018
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  19. Psyche

    Psyche Moderator
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    You misunderstood me slightly. As far as I’m aware, the fighter score/rating (FS) system is staying the way it is for now, but what is getting changed is the prize fight (PF) concept where I know at the very least the devs are trying to implement a feature where you can set the ‘defence’ teams that represent you to other players, and then maybe earn rewards based on how well that team does.
     
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  20. Luke

    Luke Well-Known Member

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    well thats still nice
     
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