Characters Vintage Virtuoso - [ better Precision user ]

[SvenZ]

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​	OLD​	NEW​
Signature Ability 1​	Gain 1 stack of PRECISION every 20/15/10 combo hits.	Gain 1 stack of PRECISION every 15/10/5 combo hits. After 20 combo hits, combo requirement is reduced by 1 for the following PRECISION gain.
Signature Ability 2​	PRECISION HITS grant ENRAGE and inflict GUARD BREAK for 5/7/10 seconds	PRECISION HITS grant ENRAGE for 5/7/10 seconds. Gain HASTE for 10/12/15 seconds after ending a combo of 20 hits or more.

Explanation:

- This means that if you were to do a 40 hit combo, you would gain a PRECISION stack on the following combo break points:

5 - 10 - 15 - 20 - 24 - 27 - 29 - 30 - 31 - 32 - 33 - 34 - 35 - 36 - 37 - 38 - 39 - 40​

- That's a total of 18 PRECISION stacks compared to the 4 you'd get from the old SA1
- After reaching a combo of 30, every following hit will be a precision hit one.
- Please keep in mind that SA1's effect resets once the combo ends. Meaning, you'll have to reach 20 combo hits again and then it'll start incrementing down.

Why the change?
- Vintage Virtuoso's biggest problem is timing. You simply can't predict and properly utilize the PRECISION stacks. Your only exception is Tuba, Tuba, but that's not reliable. As such, those precision hits are simply left as glorified critical hits. Also due to the big gap between gaining Precision stacks, you often time leave the opponent with very few Guard Breaks inflicted, because they've expired by the time you're done. So they become rather worthless.
- With this change, he'll be much, much better at utilizing Precision and will have much more consistent Enrage as well.
- The high combo playstyle will be even more encouraged, and will much better reward the player for doing so.
- The Guard Break has been removed as it's redundant with his Marquee ability. And given he's a Silver, it's cheap and easy to access. It's also removed as to not bloat the character with effects due to the new addition and massively improved damage.



Overall, VV is not very impressive right now. His damage is low, while utility is loose. Even in the official Tier List it's evident that his Fire Element Bronze counterpart is significantly better, and more widely used. Hopefully these changes will help even out the playing field and make him more viable at his niche

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Spoiler: changelog

Old SA1 versions:​

Signature Ability 1​
Gain 1 stack of PRECISION every 15/11/9 combo hits. Combo hit requirement is reduced by 1 for every 9 combo hits.​

Signature Ability 1​
Gain 1 stack of PRECISION every 20/15/10 combo hits. Gain 1 stack of PRECISION when the combo ends.

 

[SvenZ]

Made some pretty big changes.

 

[Kheul]

I really like the idea behind the rework. You stayed loyal to the original concept and made improvements so he can get a PRECISION kill more reliably at higher combo counts.

I use Big Band quite a lot and I actually consider him as my main. So let me add some stuff from my personal perspective.

I always felt like Guard Break was the unnecessary one here as he can use various moves like parries or his UNFLINCHING dash (+prestige) to open up enemies anyways. Also I'm not sure removing Enrage would be a good idea even if he will be able to always crit at some point. Because his BASE ATK is even lower than Beat Box. This rework also guts his current synergy with TUBA TUBA. The only reliable way to finish enemies with the last hit (as far as I know).

Big Band's damage scales insanely well with Beat Extend. But he activates so many stuff with prior hits due to his high hit count and low general damage. These changes won't make him any better where he lacks at, but just improves his already good high combo count reliability. But I won't expect a silver variant to be insanely impactful anyways.

I use my Vintage Virtuoso with really high Meter Gain so I aim to finish them up with Tuba Tuba as it is a really strong finishing tool both utility-wise and its synergy with VV but after this it won't work and will force me to get higher combo counts for a reliable PRECISION finish instead. If anything this can make him useful against Death Wish, after the first HEX if he is at +44 combos he won't be get HEX'd again.

With these changes:
- He will always precision hit at +44 hits which has a really good value.
- No more Tuba Tuba synergy thus makes it less reliable in a sense as you can currently get a precision finisher with just the use of a BB3.
- Way less damage overall
- Still won't be useful against squishy units as they will die before perma precision kicks in.

I would propose two changes:
- I think Enrage is way more valuable than Guard Break.
- I would want to preserve his current synergy with Tuba Tuba.

 

[SvenZ]

I really like the idea behind the rework. You stayed loyal to the original concept and made improvements so he can get a PRECISION kill more reliably at higher combo counts.

I use Big Band quite a lot and I actually consider him as my main. So let me add some stuff from my personal perspective.

I always felt like Guard Break was the unnecessary one here as he can use various moves like parries or his UNFLINCHING dash (+prestige) to open up enemies anyways. Also I'm not sure removing Enrage would be a good idea even if he will be able to always crit at some point. Because his BASE ATK is even lower than Beat Box. This rework also guts his current synergy with TUBA TUBA. The only reliable way to finish enemies with the last hit (as far as I know).

Big Band's damage scales insanely well with Beat Extend. But he activates so many stuff with prior hits due to his high hit count and low general damage. These changes won't make him any better where he lacks at, but just improves his already good high combo count reliability. But I won't expect a silver variant to be insanely impactful anyways.

I use my Vintage Virtuoso with really high Meter Gain so I aim to finish them up with Tuba Tuba as it is a really strong finishing tool both utility-wise and its synergy with VV but after this it won't work and will force me to get higher combo counts for a reliable PRECISION finish instead. If anything this can make him useful against Death Wish, after the first HEX if he is at +44 combos he won't be get HEX'd again.

With these changes:
- He will always precision hit at +44 hits which has a really good value.
- No more Tuba Tuba synergy thus makes it less reliable in a sense as you can currently get a precision finisher with just the use of a BB3.
- Way less damage overall
- Still won't be useful against squishy units as they will die before perma precision kicks in.

I would propose two changes:
- I think Enrage is way more valuable than Guard Break.
- I would want to preserve his current synergy with Tuba Tuba.

Thank you for the feedback! I did not think of Tuba Tuba offering exactly 21 hits, so you finish on a Precision hit. Even if you follow it up with Giant Step into Typmani Drive, it's still 41 hits. Just shy away from the next break point. If we change the base combo requirement from 9 to 8, your 21st attack ends up gaining Precision.. so it's still not exact.. I'll ponder on this more. I'm open to ideas.

Good call on the Guard Break. It's indeed quite redundant. Especially given his PA high proc chance, and the fact it works with Accuracy (thanks again for sharing that). I'll change it to Enrage. There has been a lot of Powercreep, so he shouldn't be overwhelming with these changes.

 

[SvenZ]

I would propose two changes:
- I would want to preserve his current synergy with Tuba Tuba.

I think I've got it! How about the following:

Gain 1 stack of PRECISION every 20/15/10 combo hits. After 20 combo hits, combo requirement is reduced by 2 for the following PRECISION gain.

So the breakpoints will be as follows: 10-20-28-34-38-40-41-42-43-44 etc...

This way we preserve both the Tuba Tuba synergy AND incentivize even further going for those big combos! Less Precision is provided for lower combos and consistent Precision after every hit is reached sooner at 40 hits. I'm really happy with how this turned out

 

[SvenZ]

@Kheul hey there! I shared this suggestion in the Discord and got into a pretty lengthy discussion. After some modifications, we ended up with this version. Can you share your 2 cents on it?

SA1

Gain 1 stack of PRECISION every 15/10/5 combo hits. After 20 combo hits, combo requirement is reduced by 1 for the following PRECISION gain.

SA2

PRECISION HITS grant ENRAGE for 5/7/10 seconds. Gain HASTE for 10 seconds after ending a combo of at least 30/25/20 hits.

Essentially, base combo requirement has been reduced, however the new effect of combo requirement reduction has been lowered from 2 to 1.
Also you gain Haste now when you end a combo of X hits

These are the new breakpoints:
[5, 10, 15, 20, 24, 27, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, etc...]

You now get the perma precision at 30 hits opposed to 40 hits. Big buffs overall, which is why I wanted to hear your take on it

Link to the Discord discussion: https://discord.com/channels/1227390810798948423/1324120290476953600

 

[Kheul]

Hey, it's nice to see you are still working on him to make him better.

40 -> 30 is for sure a buff yeah. I won't argue this buff is unnecessary or anything like that, as he has pitiful base ATK and the current limit on how abuseable the precision is pretty much determined by Windswept as she is still the most extensive user of it, a little reminder, I'm talking about only the PRECISION itself.

When deciding a unit's power, I genuinely couldn't care less about the character's base tier honestly. As Beat Box is just a better Neuromancer and Bloody Valentine still the best sustain unit in the entire game. I wouldn't call them abnormalities, they are just better. Sometimes simple is stronger than those complicated paragraph long signature abilities.

Is this better than Windswept? No. Then there should be nothing to really worry about except how you want to present this signature ability. As he is not going to be meta-defining or anything, I think one should focus on to make him as fun as possible for the players or deviate the unit from its original concept to give him an unique role or purpose.

I don't think deviating from the concept is necessary, you've found a really nice rework idea for him and I think you should stick to it. It sounds fun to use as well.

I took a look at the conversation you had with the user Beat Box. As it is a totally subjective topic there are no actual rights and wrongs, this rework is your idea, what do you want to achieve with it?

You want to make him more usable? You already got it.
You want him to be a decent option among precision users? You already got it.

My personal take?

As for Golden Gunner I hate her gameplay style, so I won't use her unless it is necessary, and look at that, it has never been necessary. There is no point in unnecessary powercreep unless you are rewriting the meta. What difference does it make when an underwhelming unit suddenly becomes better than a overperforming underdog? It doesn't change anything at the end.

I wouldn't do any drastic changes over current version at this point. There is one thing however, Haste. It is probably due to my playstyle but, I don't really restart my combos most of the time unless it is very high streak, most of the time opponent dies in one rotation as I use two Noise Cancel and one Cymbal Clash which would add up to 6 more full ground combos. So yeah it doesn't mean much for me. What about the other players though?

Ending a combo with +20 hits would mean those prior hits will probably fill up a decent part of your Blockbusters already. It will feel like a waste for most of the players to get Haste just after finishing a combo. The catch here is, it is not that it is bad to have Haste or anything like that, it is just that the feel of waste that will make it feel bad as you will be gaining it AFTER all the hits you've inflicted. Don't include the Haste part and Voilà! Suddenly the ability feels better because you don't feel like Haste is getting wasted anymore.

I can think of one situation however where it would be nice to have it. It is just after the Tuba Tuba. The Stun from it and 21 hits would let you start your next combo immediately with Haste, which is nice but very niche as you would use Tuba Tuba as a finisher due to PRECISION anyways.

Maybe change Haste to something else that is more suitable to be obtained at the end of your combo? Or integrate Haste in a different way? This is what came to my mind:

"Every Non-Precision hit grants the Highest Tier Blockbuster(s) 1% Meter".

It is 22% more Meter until the 30-hit breakpoint for your BB3s, hell if you don't use a BB3? It can give meter to your "two" BB2s, no BB2s? You get the point. It can be a nice way to deal with Curse as well, as you won't be gaining any precision so more Meter Gain. So yeah, that would be my feedback, I hope I was able to help in some way.

 

[SvenZ]

Hey, it's nice to see you are still working on him to make him better.

40 -> 30 is for sure a buff yeah. I won't argue this buff is unnecessary or anything like that, as he has pitiful base ATK and the current limit on how abuseable the precision is pretty much determined by Windswept as she is still the most extensive user of it, a little reminder, I'm talking about only the PRECISION itself.

When deciding a unit's power, I genuinely couldn't care less about the character's base tier honestly. As Beat Box is just a better Neuromancer and Bloody Valentine still the best sustain unit in the entire game. I wouldn't call them abnormalities, they are just better. Sometimes simple is stronger than those complicated paragraph long signature abilities.

Is this better than Windswept? No. Then there should be nothing to really worry about except how you want to present this signature ability. As he is not going to be meta-defining or anything, I think one should focus on to make him as fun as possible for the players or deviate the unit from its original concept to give him an unique role or purpose.

I don't think deviating from the concept is necessary, you've found a really nice rework idea for him and I think you should stick to it. It sounds fun to use as well.

I took a look at the conversation you had with the user Beat Box. As it is a totally subjective topic there are no actual rights and wrongs, this rework is your idea, what do you want to achieve with it?

You want to make him more usable? You already got it.
You want him to be a decent option among precision users? You already got it.

My personal take?

As for Golden Gunner I hate her gameplay style, so I won't use her unless it is necessary, and look at that, it has never been necessary. There is no point in unnecessary powercreep unless you are rewriting the meta. What difference does it make when an underwhelming unit suddenly becomes better than a overperforming underdog? It doesn't change anything at the end.

I wouldn't do any drastic changes over current version at this point. There is one thing however, Haste. It is probably due to my playstyle but, I don't really restart my combos most of the time unless it is very high streak, most of the time opponent dies in one rotation as I use two Noise Cancel and one Cymbal Clash which would add up to 6 more full ground combos. So yeah it doesn't mean much for me. What about the other players though?

Ending a combo with +20 hits would mean those prior hits will probably fill up a decent part of your Blockbusters already. It will feel like a waste for most of the players to get Haste just after finishing a combo. The catch here is, it is not that it is bad to have Haste or anything like that, it is just that the feel of waste that will make it feel bad as you will be gaining it AFTER all the hits you've inflicted. Don't include the Haste part and Voilà! Suddenly the ability feels better because you don't feel like Haste is getting wasted anymore.

I can think of one situation however where it would be nice to have it. It is just after the Tuba Tuba. The Stun from it and 21 hits would let you start your next combo immediately with Haste, which is nice but very niche as you would use Tuba Tuba as a finisher due to PRECISION anyways.

Maybe change Haste to something else that is more suitable to be obtained at the end of your combo? Or integrate Haste in a different way? This is what came to my mind:

"Every Non-Precision hit grants the Highest Tier Blockbuster(s) 1% Meter".

It is 22% more Meter until the 30-hit breakpoint for your BB3s, hell if you don't use a BB3? It can give meter to your "two" BB2s, no BB2s? You get the point. It can be a nice way to deal with Curse as well, as you won't be gaining any precision so more Meter Gain. So yeah, that would be my feedback, I hope I was able to help in some way.

Thank you for the very in-depth feedback, and also for checking out the conversation!!

My goal is indeed just to make him good enough so he's useful in more situations and so he's more fun to use. I don't think he should be better than either GG or WindSwept, and as I mentioned in the convo, you can't compare characters in a vacuum, just because they share a trait. There are character tools, other variants of the same tier, character preference, playstyle preference, etc...

As for the Haste, I only added it because he made a fair point that VV uses a lot of BB moves in his kit. However, I don't think a character should be entirely self sufficient, and if he is, it should be in a controlled manner. If the Haste was granted during the combo, VV wouldn't get a lot of meter out of it, since most of his attacks will be coming from blockbusters. So I think it's ok for him to gain it at the end, as it's more of an assist for new players. They can pull off a short combo while all BBs are not ready and will have Haste for their follow-up one, which will provide just enough extra juice to charge them up. Or another case would be finishing off an opponent with all of your BBs. For the next tagging in opponent, you'll have Haste to build up meter faster.

But again, I don't really insist on its inclusion, so I'm fine with straight up removing it. I'm not sure how I feel about granting him meter while he's doing combos tbh. It provides too much self-sufficiency imo without changing his gameplay or making any sacrifice. It may not be a lot of meter, but it will further encourages equipping just BBs, which I'm not a fan of. Very cool idea tho, so thank you for sharing!