1. [2018/06/22]
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Fights AI turtling

Discussion in 'Feedback & Suggestions' started by Maelwolf, May 19, 2017.

  1. Joanie

    Joanie Member

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    Yes, we know there was no challenge to the previous 1.1.1 AI. Please stop repeating it. What our compliant is that we (@Maelwolf and I, if you want the specifics) do not enjoy the current 1.2.0 AI regardless of difficulty - what we're saying is that it's unenjoyable. And to be honest, I don't feel like repeating my opinions on this subject any further. I rather get newer opinions from others: beside our little merry go round.
     
    ThanatosDK likes this.
  2. TeitoWolf

    TeitoWolf New Member

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    I'm curios Maelwolf, what would you propose as an alternate solution to the AI "problem"? I dont feel like your argument holds any water, mostly because there are many fighting games where they simply increase the health and/or damage of an AI opponent to make it more challenging. (Ex, Injustice 2 has a mini-boss mode where you fight characters which both of the above; Much older fighting games (Arcade era) simply made the Ai read inputs and technically cheat.; MKX had made their tower mode challenging by adding random modifiers to fight which could be just blatantly unfair.)
    I dont feel like the AI is playing in any unfair or cheap way in the context of the game and I dont recall any challenging moments with the previous AI (Tho, that argument also hold no water since experiences are subjective but) as I recall, I had to make the game artifically harder for my self by intentionally gimping the team I brought to be 2 or 3x lower than the enemy for it to feel somewhat difficult.

    Edit: However, regarding my previous post. I do not believe the Ai should stay the same as is it now, game-wide. I believe the current AI should onlny be applied to Higher Prize fights and expert-level content. Just to clarify.
     
    moisterrific likes this.
  3. moisterrific

    moisterrific Well-Known Member

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    Well bugs aside I'm definitely enjoying this new AI behaviour. Is it because you're finding the AI to be too overwhelming so that's why you're not enjoying it? I'd be happy to offer you some tips on how to beat them.
     
  4. Cellsai

    Cellsai Oh Sai
    Moderator

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    I think you're taking this the wrong way a bit. I don't think anyone has said they need to remove the new block heavy AI entirely. Everyone has mentioned that they want it to be more forgiving in the early stages of play only.
    Win streaks will still be limited, but it at least gives people more of a chance than they have now.
    The early Prize Fight AI is notably weaker than the later ones already, but a lot of folks don't think it's weak enough - myself included.

    And that's part of the problem. In the early stages people shouldn't need tips on how to fight the AI. They should be able to learn it for themselves, but it's a brick wall in some places. You clearly enjoy the challenge, but you've already had months to learn how to play the game with the easy AI. In a game as grindy as this one, having a challenge all the time is absolutely not a good thing.
     
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  5. TeitoWolf

    TeitoWolf New Member

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    I do believe if they're gonna make changes to the AI, I feel like it has to be relatively soon. I've introduced my nephew and another friend to the game not even half an hour ago and they're already discouraged from the AI, I think it's pretty consistent that newcomers have to climb onto the skill floor currently and that's never a good thing for a game.
     
    ThanatosDK and moisterrific like this.
  6. Maelwolf

    Maelwolf New Member

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    I'm not really sure what you mean by my argument not holding water. What argument? I used an obviously exaggerated example of raising health by a huge amount to point out that you could make changes that would increase difficulty but not be fun. Do you disagree with this? I feel like you are talking past me.

    In regards to an alternative to the current AI, I would suggest looking at how players exploited the AI before the last patch. The AI used certain moves at silly times leaving it vulnerable, that could be changed. I know with Fillia I could lock the AI down spamming light attacks, that should be changed. Specific issues should be addressed rather than locking the AI into an extremely repeatitive defensive pattern.
     
  7. fatfursatan

    fatfursatan Member

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    @moisterrific You're repeating the same messages over and over again and talking other people down.

    Anyway, if I could offer changes to the AI: It'd be nice if the AI had some rudimentary and noticeable way to adapt to your behavior.... or if there were more varied archetypes for AI styles, even in higher levels of play... shifting the ratios to favor more defensive styles, but still sometimes involving aggressive AI that allow for more interactions.

    I suppose that's how it is now? I think? But it's hard to -feel- those differences. Like, Valentine goes for throws over and over again when not blocking. Characters tend to go for a small pool of combos when attacking on your block. Cerebella likes throws, too. That's all I've got.

    But it'd be nice if, after not going for throws an entire game, the opponent didn't counter throw immediately almost all the time in Prize Fight. I seriously just don't use throws because I have NO idea when the AI is vulnerable to them. It sucks having an entire option from your arsenal functionally gone.

    It'd be VERY interesting if you could 'play' the AI a little bit by forcing them to gently shift behavior over a match, sort of like conditioning an opponent in a fighting game... maybe having different character be more/less likely to shift based on their personality/playstyle.

    Really, REALLY rudimentary, like, adjusting the % chance an AI will go for throws over other options based on how much the player blocks, or going for less greedy combos depending on how often the player uses Bursts... that kinda thing.
     
    ThanatosDK, TeitoWolf and Joanie like this.
  8. Shenbet

    Shenbet New Member

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    I'd revert to the previous AI for now and rework the current AI because at the current moment in time the AI is a little unenjoyable to fight and takes away from the fast paced action I'm used to in Skullgirls, while I think the AI should block a little more I feel they do it too much in a game like this. Please do consider that for a temporary option and reinstate the current AI but reworked and a little less annoying. I love the game to death but this is a little discouraging, you know? The developers have done a good job and I'd hate to have the game ruined for me from this one little thing.
     
    TeitoWolf likes this.
  9. MightyZug

    MightyZug Game Director
    Hidden Variable Dev

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    Hey everyone.

    First off, thanks a ton for all of the candid feedback on this topic, I know it's been pretty contentious!

    I just wanted to quickly post in order to give a very high level overview of what changes were made and what we're planning on doing in our next update:

    WHY DID THE AI CHANGE?

    1. EXPLOITS - As we were approaching Hard Launch, we encountered numerous critical exploits in the AI that - if discovered - could allow you to undermine the AI's effectiveness with relatively little skill. With more people playing the game and strategies circulating, we were concerned that those exploits would be discovered and shared, and would ultimately compromise much of what we had built content-wise.
    2. UNDERPERFORMING HIGH LEVEL AI - Our AI at the highest levels - while still tricky - was not providing the kind of challenge that we were hoping for our top tier players.
    WHAT CHANGED?
    Although there were a host of small tweaks along the way, the most notable changes (as it pertains to this discussion) were that we had the AI favor Blocking more over Back Dashing, and made it more aware of punishable windows so that it could capitalize on vulnerabilities more effectively. We also made some of the punishable windows (ex: a blocked 3rd Tap Attack) more consistent across the board.

    While this change was very effective at resolving the two main points above - it had the unintended side effect of making our lower level AI more challenging to new players and more frustrating to engage with across the board (as many of you have noted).

    WHAT CHANGES WILL BE MADE IN OUR NEXT UPDATE?

    The changes below will have an impact across all AI levels, but they are particularly focused on improving the "feel" of our lower level AI that you will encounter in most of Story Mode BASIC (after Fishbone to Pick) and in the first few Prize Fight fights (before you build a streak).
    1. DECREASING TURTLING FREQUENCY - Lower level AI will engage in less turtling/blocking in general
    2. DECREASING THROW BREAK FREQUENCY - Lower level AI will be less inclined to Throw Break (but will still throw break more frequently if throws are being exploited)
    3. REDUCED RATE OF PUNISHING - When presented with an opportunity to "punish", the lower level AI will be less likely to automatically counter attack
    4. REDUCED RATE OF FULL COMBO USAGE - When the AI DOES counter, it will be less likely to do a full Light Combo > Launcher > Juggle and instead be more inclined to favor Light Combos or other lower damage finishers.
    By tweaking these elements, we're hoping to create an AI that is closer to the difficulty level pre-Hard Launch, while still exhibiting more intelligent behavior across the board.

    BONUS - IMPROVED SM + BB USAGE
    Independent of those tweaks, we're also going to be improving the AI's usage of Special Moves and Blockbusters. In many cases, this is simply making them less likely to make very bad decisions (ex: using a Throw-based move at long range), but it also means that they will use more tactical moves properly (ex: using Burst to interrupt player combos) to help "demonstrate" their functionality. This will mostly impact higher level AI, but it’s something to keep an eye out for as well!

    We'll share full build notes once that update is prepared, and we'll of course be eager for your thoughts after that next update goes live.

    Hope this helps to clarify things a bit - thanks once again for all of your feedback!
     

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