There are quite a few gold worthy abilities that are only being held back because of poor stats. Heavy Reign, Number One, In Denile, No Egrets, Blood Drive, and Beat Box are the most notable ones. If these fighters had the stats of a true gold, they would easily be in the S tier. At their originally rarity (bronze/silver) they stand out as very exceptional fighters, but once evolved to gold there is a major stat difference between them and true gold fighters and that stat difference becomes very noticeable. See how there are no S tier fighters that were originally silver or bronze? That's how significant the stat difference is between evolved fighters and true golds.
Heavy Reign:if you can get her to 50-100% crit, she has high potential to fill a BB3 meter in one ground combo. But as a gold, she needs 100% atk bonus or crit damage bonus to do any real damage, and that's in addition to the crit rate upgrades she needs for stability. At that point, you might as well throw those moves onto a primed because she has the base stats already there.
Number One: He easily gains 2-3 stacks from his ground combo while hasted, and with enough luck you can even get up to 4 or 5 stacks. As a silver he's definitely top tier. As a gold, he requires 2 enrage stacks or 50% atk% bonus to do as much damage as a Harlequin with no bonus atk. At that point you'd be better off putting his moves onto a Wulfsbane since he has great all around stats, and a very reliable signature ability that helps him deal massive damage.
In Denile: Armor and Immunity from her signature ability is phenomenal at 15 seconds each. The only thing holding her back from being the most powerful tank in the game is that she's a bronze. As a bronze, she's the most durable fighter at her level. As a silver she's only rivaled by Resonant Evil. As a gold she just doesn't have enough atk to kill top teams before you time out. Yeah she basically has invincibility that can't be removed because of immunity, and she cannot die since she gets it from a bunch of BB1s, but she suffers from the same issues as heavy reign. She needs 100% atk bonus on top of 50% defense to compete with the Gold top tier tank that is Armed Forces.
No Egrets: Disables are exceptional. Complete lockdown of meter gain and inability to use blockbusters, SMs, or tag out is very effective. As a silver she shuts down basically everybody. As a gold, she needs 50%-100% crit rate, and 50% atk or 15% crit damage bonus from moves to be as effective as most other golds without stat bonuses.
Blood Drive: As a silver, she's very strong. At gold though, you can't afford to be a glass cannon that also bleeds yourself. We can't allow ourselves to forget that Harlequin is all over the place in gold prize fights. At gold tier most people will probably be stacking HP and Defense on their Harlequins as well as a BB3. If you're bleeding yourself, while also trying to kill before she BB3s you you're probably going to have a bad time. And since you're Blood Drive, you have a max stat of 5k atk and 18k hp. You need 100% atk bonus to do as much damage as a 50% atk bonus buzzkill. And you also need to worry about giving her defense and HP bonuses if you don't want to get one-shotted by every tool in a high level Harlequin's arsenal.
Beat Box: 1 full combo and pop 2 SMs and you basically have a BB3 charged. He's fantastic. Easy to play. As a bronze or silver, he's one of the most straightforward fighters to carry with. As a gold though, he needs 50% atk from moves or 2 enrage stacks to do as much damage as a Harlequin with no atk% bonus.
The short version of what the analysis in the above spoiler was saying is that while certain golds have exceptional abilities (many having better abilites than the true gold variants) and many are worth evolving, they require significant stat investment from moves to get their stats to the same level as if they were a true gold. Also if you put the moves with the move stats required to make those fighters as powerful as a true gold onto a true gold you'd end up with a phenomenal fighter instead of just a good one. I could make a case for why it's not worth evolving any fighters beyond silver, but this comment is already long enough, and I don't want to bore you too much.
Bore me? Not at all, I would seriously love to hear more. I'm trying to reach something near the level of technical knowledge you and moist have, and stuff like this helps. In a pc I have with another member here, we've been discussing what potential new fighters might be like. One of those fighters was a Molly that can eat a bb1 as about as well as make good jokes, but in return for that fragileness she supplies a lot of passive stat buffs to her teammates while in reserve, and while out she supplies faster Regen and meter gain. Do you think that a character like that would be of any use at all and might help these characters be any good?
I'm not familiar with the non playable characters from the Skullgirls universe. Personally I don't spend much time trying to craft ideas for character signature abilities. Unless the devs hire me or ask me to throw out ideas, I personally consider it time wasted to throw any ideas out there for characters. Plus throwing out ideas for non playable characters isn't realistic at the moment since we still don't even have the full SG cast in the game yet. That's just me. I have nothing against you doing it. I just prefer to spend my time doing other things that are equally as pointless, like doing random calculations and then making pointless threads to convince myself that all the time I spent doing them wasn't time wasted.
Hey, fair enough man. To each his own. Still, I think that we need a slight buff or ways to power up these characters that can't compete stat-wise, either by providing a support character, or going wulfden's idea, allowing us to buff characters by sacking duplicates once at gold. What do you think?
We do have a way to power up characters that struggle because of low base stats: Move Stats. These fighters require more move stat investment to perform as well as true golds, but there's nothing but RNG and coins standing in the way of you getting a Gold Twisted Mettle or Understudy with 10k attack. It's easier for true golds to hit those kinds of stats, and I think it should stay that way. They're harder to obtain for a reason
I wouldn't mind the whole sacrificing dupes to make fighters stronger thing. Wulfden really had a pretty good idea and I think it's the kind of suggestion that deserves its own thread to give it more visibility for the devs to potentially look at. Maybe flesh it out a little first. I don't think the devs spend too much time looking around the general threads for ideas to implement in the game. They likely mostly look at bug reports and suggestions and let the mods handle the other stuff. Lots of other games do something similar to what he was suggesting. Some do it well, and others not so much, but it's really not a bad idea. It would give more reason for people to spend money on the game to obtain multiple copies of exclusives.
How do move stats work, and are the relics worth it to get better moves? Do individual fighters have set stats, and the moves change that?
Should we set up a thread for that? It really seems like something that the game should be able to have. But by fleshing it out, what do you suggest? Like different tiers providing different gains, with each character yielding different boosts, i.e., a Raw Nerv giving a... Idk, +20 to attack?
It wasn't my suggestion, so I think Wulfden would be the one who write it up since he has the most complete understanding of what he was initially proposing. I meant try to give an explanation for how this new sort of ascension-like system would work, why it would benefit the game as a whole, how it would affect the overall balance of the game, and just in general why it is worth their time to consider actually putting the effort of their staff into implementing it. You're selling an idea to the devs to make their game more successful, is how you should look at these kinds of things.
The simplest way for how to implement his idea would be something like sacrificing a dupe increases their level cap by 2 levels or 3/3/4 until they have a maximum level of 60, and the stats gained from these levels is significantly more than from the first 50 levels. This way you really have to weigh the value of having multiple copies of the same fighter or sacrificing the dupe to get those extra stats.
Okay, got it. What kind of increases are we talking about, and would it only affect bronze and silver characters? I feel granting this to gold would be a little unfair, since we're talking about ways to make bronzes more useful.
Now it feels like you're asking me to revise the entire idea... Well, no matter. I'll play along.
You're complicating things here. You can't make this kind of option exclusive to just evolved Bronzes and Silvers. If you do that, it's in a way devaluing Golds because many Bronzes and Silvers have abilities that are far superior to Golds. If these evolved Bronze and Silver fighters are capable of getting their stats closer to Golds and true Golds can't also utilize this system then there's really not much reason for us to make any fighters rarer than others. Let people make super teams with their lvl 60 true golds. Not everyone is going to be able to take advantage of this system anyway.
There are lots of different ways you can come up with to implement this kind of a system. Increase the max level cap for each ascension. Make each ascension add one extra row to one of the branches of the skill tree. Set a restriction so that you can't ascend unless your ascension material is at lvl 50. Make fusing dupes give a flat increase to stats. And the list goes on.
It kind of is asking for a really big change to the game though. I wouldn't get my hopes up. I don't like suggesting these kinds of big changes for precisely this reason. The more thought I put into an idea that I think is worth implementing, the more attached I become to it, and not having a positive reception from the devs is all the more disappointing.
Oh, sorry. I didn't mean to do that at all. I'm just kind of trying to pitch ideas, though mine clearly aren't as well thought out as yours.
Okay, then that makes it slightly more balanced, I suppose. I was mainly asking as it seemed to me as if the issue was how these good Characters couldn't compete when it came to stats, forcing them down into a less usable state. Giving ways to help these underpowered character become better was my main goal with this overall, but I was worried about providing this same bonus to gold would make them even better than before.
I feel like an infinite increase is a good idea, though I feel characters should reach a cap at one point or another. Having to face against moisterrific's level 750 maxed out team would be a scary thought. Level 60 feels like a good idea, and beyond that the stats no longer increase. Or were you suggesting ascending works like evolving, where it resets the level to 1? Adding branches to the tree doesn't really work imo. It's a lot of code to add for all characters, and that uses space that could be better spent on implementing new characters. But I do like this list though. Having ways to go beyond 50 seems fun.
It is a big ask, and it is a big change, and you're right about this most likely not getting in to the extent we want to it and have developed it ourselves. That said, surely you must agree it is fun to be able to come up with these ideas, even if they never come to fruition?
An infinite cap would make things too complicated, and has potential to get really P2W if you let something like that into the game. Especially if/when PVP becomes a thing. 60 seems like a good number because I suggested it. I would prefer not to have ascending work like evolving where it resets your level. I mean, I can think of ways to implement that, but again I don't want to get too invested in this idea that wasn't mine in the first place.
I wasn't suggesting extra branches. I was suggesting an extra layer to the current branches. Here's an idea that nobody asked for and that isn't likely to happen because it's too much work. You could make it work like evolution. Require 3-5 gold sacrifices. After this is done, an extra layer appears on your skill tree on HP, Atk, and SA. Unlocking that extra layer costs 1-3 keys per branch depending on the original rarity of the fighter you're ascending. See what I mean? There are lots of ways to do this, but simple is always best. This is overcomplicating things.
Ehh. As I said before, I'm more of a calculations and balance kind of guy. Never was the creative type that thinks up new ideas. I'm not on the dev team. They have their vision for what they'd like the game to be. I'm just a dude who plays the game and wants it to be successful so we can get more stuff in the game. Pls give us Minette They aren't paying me to do anything for them, so they have no obligation to consider any of my ideas. I'm just a part of the community. So long as the game stays fun and interesting I'll be happy. I'm glad that the devs seem to be pretty involved with the community as far as listening to our suggestions and what not. I wouldn't be this involved with the game's community if I didn't enjoy the game as much as I do.
By infinite cap, I meant that we could continue to increase the level but the stats would not increase past 60. Though Im sure I'm just complicating things further. 60 seems like a good cap. Or, maybe we can do what WOW did, and increase the cap with each new update.
I like that idea, but yeah, that is pretty complicated. I really need to not try and write things like these at 1 in the morning when I'm exhausted and I put too much thought into these things.
For a supposedly "uncreative" person, you sure have put a lot of thought into this topic man. Give yourself some credit! I think at this point we need to wait for Wulfden to come back and give us his thoughts. We've laid down the base framework, so it's up to him to help us refine it.
By infinite cap, I meant that we could continue to increase the level but the stats would not increase past 60. Though Im sure I'm just complicating things further. 60 seems like a good cap. Or, maybe we can do what WOW did, and increase the cap with each new update.
I like that idea, but yeah, that is pretty complicated. I really need to not try and write things like these at 1 in the morning when I'm exhausted and I put too much thought into these things.
For a supposedly "uncreative" person, you sure have put a lot of thought into this topic man. Give yourself some credit! I think at this point we need to wait for Wulfden to come back and give us his thoughts. We've laid down the base framework, so it's up to him to help us refine it.
Wulfden really had a pretty good idea and I think it's the kind of suggestion that deserves its own thread to give it more visibility for the devs to potentially look at. Maybe flesh it out a little first. I don't think the devs spend too much time looking around the general threads for ideas to implement in the game. They likely mostly look at bug reports and suggestions and let the mods handle the other stuff. Lots of other games do something similar to what he was suggesting. Some do it well, and others not so much, but it's really not a bad idea. It would give more reason for people to spend money on the game to obtain multiple copies of exclusives.
Hey hey you guys! Thanks for bringing this up, actually, and to cut things short from going off topic, I'll make a separate thread in order to flesh out some ideas and work with you guys on making a balanced system so that we can work more along the lesser units and hopefully bring everyone's faves as viable options!
