Elephant in the Room (The Power Creep)

[Hall☆weenQueen]

Let's talk about a big elephant in the room--

THE POWER CREEP

If you have no idea what I mean, here's a brief explanation:
After a game such as this one has been running for a decent amount of time (for mobile games, generally a year plus) and the number of end game players begins to increase-- there is pressure to come up with new content to keep those players around. Of course, coming up with new stuff daily can be tiresome, so many games will succumb to the infamous "power creep". This is when new fighters (or tiers of fighters) are released, giving the end game players a new standard to achieve. The actual "creep" part is when this becomes a continuous thing and before you know it you've got fighters with ridiculous stats and things go spiralling out of control.

There has been discussion of a new fighter tier beyond gold being released, but so far this has been unconfirmed. (To the best of my knowledge)

So the question stands: Do you think that releasing a new tier fighter is a good idea? If not, what could be done otherwise for late/end-game players?
TELL ME YOUR THOUGHTS!

 

[Robokit]

Far as I can tell there're a couple of ways veterans are contributing to the game:

1. Providing tips and guides to newcomers.
2. Maintaining and expanding the depth and variety of game-related literature
3. Providing achievement milestones/ markers for new players.
4. A source of continued publicity for the game,
5. Providing achievement milestones/goals for non-veterans.
5. Maintaining the competitiveness of different game modes, pfs in particular.

The biggest problem is the veterans are not going to spend much of anything if they haven't already. And if they're only going to keep up the burden on servers and not drive revenue for the deveopers, it's not gonna be sustainable in the long run.

I'd assume any pertinent solutions veterans retention without the release of any more premium fighters classes could
be along the lines of exclusive assets and rights for veterans

1. assets exclusively available to fighters may include
1. 1. alternative skins for fighters
1.2 special moves/ blockbusters (may be obtained through IAP at a minimal price as the creation of moves are generally costly for devs)
1. 3. an exclusive cast of fighters (these are not more powerful than fighters available to all, but certainly desirable if only for the sake of greater
gameplay variety, and therefore, I hope, won't inflate )
1.4. bonuses in the form of in-game currency , mainly theonites and coins but the inclusion of relics and moves is all the more sweet

A merit system where veterans accumulate points towards the qualifications for claims on the said exclusive goodies may be
implemented with in the following ways:
I. Points are calculated according to the number of successful referrals/recommendations made (ie the number of
new players introduced to the game) and the temporal (I mean time) and financial commitments of those new players.
(I understand this feature, if ever implemented, probably should not be limited to veterans only. But I'd like to stress the possibility of
abundant player interaction and mutually-spurred engagement with the game when one player's interests are at stake in the other's
progression, which may also in turn give rise to more player output game-mechanic-wise)

II. Points are calculated based on consistently achieving high combo counts against high fs AI teams. That way veterans would
have a genuine incentive to become highly-skilled , which again may generate more insights into strategy and game mechanics
, instead of mindlessly grnding like many of us are doing now. ( I realize the sgm twitter combo contest can already be considered
part of this scheme )

2. One exclusive right that I'd like most to see granted to veterans, besides the eligibility for working towards claims on the above goodies,
is the right to farm equipments for sale to lower-levelled players. This mechanism would allow veterans to upgrade equipments through
using them in fights under special conditions (e.g. in very high pf streaks), and then sell them to non-veterans. The buyers shall
pay real money and the seller will receive in-game currency or rack up points towards gaining the assets mentioned before.

Additionally, I'd like to see prolific and long-term contributers , in particular those that come up with game-changing suggestions or do
the game a tremendous service in publicity be rewarded with in-game assets. Admittedly, I'm not a skilled player or
an actively social-networking gamer so I can't contribute much like @Cartouche‼ or @moisterrific does in combo studies
and video posting , but I hope I'm starting to score some points on the suggestion front lol.

In general, a game mode that requires with veteran-exclusive rewards that require a herculean effort in grinding or extremely challenging
but can be obtained at very reasonable IAP prices is the way to go in designing mechanics aimed at
productiive veteran retention.

All in all , most likely some of the ideas put forward above are far-fetched. But I'd just like to throw them out in hopes of inviting more.
Many thanks to @Hall☆weenQueen for starting this thread!

 

[Tom Kulczewski]

Personally I'm okay with things as they are. My motivation at this point is having perfect teams.

 

[Psyche]

What was officially confirmed is that there will soon be a feature that allows you to do something productive with duplicate gold fighters that currently can only be rid of through ‘power up’ sacrifice. Everyone’s logic immediately pointed to a new rarity tier as being the most obvious possibility, but it is unconfirmed. There is only a limited number of other things they could mean, though.

I largely agree with Tom on this one, to be honest, as I do not see a problem with the end game as it is currently. However, I can acknowledge that not everyone is a completionist and they don’t care about 100% ‘completing’ their collection and thus are left with little else to do. There’s no power creep phenomenon taking place as far as I’m concerned, especially as no ‘pay to win’ elements have emerged, but only time will truly tell.

 

[MatDestruction]

I don't really like the idea of a new tier of fighters, because (for me) it's already really hard to max out a Gold (My highest level fighter is a Valentine - Last Hope lv. 46), so I imagine that leveling up Platinum Fighter (that's the name of the new tier I imagine) is waaaaaay harder, and if there's new Platinum fighters, how rare they would be? 0.001% chance of getting from any relic? Players that get them may be simple unstoppable in PF.

I think that new Golden Characters and more Story Mode is just what I want, I would be really happy with just this.
I know some players are not completionist, but I also think you can't do much about them leaving the game, they would leave no matter what.

 

[Fel]

Let's talk about a big elephant in the room--

THE POWER CREEP

If you have no idea what I mean, here's a brief explanation:
After a game such as this one has been running for a decent amount of time (for mobile games, generally a year plus) and the number of end game players begins to increase-- there is pressure to come up with new content to keep those players around. Of course, coming up with new stuff daily can be tiresome, so many games will succumb to the infamous "power creep". This is when new fighters (or tiers of fighters) are released, giving the end game players a new standard to achieve. The actual "creep" part is when this becomes a continuous thing and before you know it you've got fighters with ridiculous stats and things go spiralling out of control.

There has been discussion of a new fighter tier beyond gold being released, but so far this has been unconfirmed. (To the best of my knowledge)

So the question stands: Do you think that releasing a new tier fighter is a good idea? If not, what could be done otherwise for late/end-game players?
TELL ME YOUR THOUGHTS!

As long as all character can achieve this "new tier" it won't be a problem. There are already plenty of "unstoppable" teams in PF because some characters fill out very specific niches. Power imbalance is already a thing in the game and its fine. I don't think a new tier is going to make that change for the worse.

 

[Shawesome]

The idea of a new tier fills me with excitement and dread. On the one hand: new skins, abilities, and ways to use a character. On the other: always losing against a certain PF team, or not having any difficulty. For the most part, I would just like to see my variants and Origin Stories (and possibly levels for regular Story Mode). I’m also tired of each character having 2 bronzes and silvers. I would love to see more of them, for variety’s sake. Also, Zone-Squigly being added is a dream for me, because I know it isn’t something that’ll happen in real life.

 

[Zuzuska]

There's also the Fire Emblem Heroes route they could take, where you can merge/sacrifice golds to reach levels such as 50+1 or 50+10 as a maximum.
FEH Example
SGM Example

(Slight Increase to FS, increase to HP and ATK. Removes duplicates and is not TOO influential on new players attempting to beat defense teams)

 

[moisterrific]

I think having 3 rarities is good enough.

A tier above gold will likely be platinum and that can bear too much of a resemblance to silver. We already know golds take significantly longer to level up and require significantly more resources than the two previous tiers combined. A tier above gold would have the fighter capped at lvl 60 and require an astronomical amount of coins and skill points to max out. Also if they made a new tier of fighters there will have to be a new tier of special moves and blockbusters to match, which would cost even more than the already expensive gold tier.

There’s already a lot of problems with the existing 3 fighter rarities, adding another tier would just cause more problems.

 

[MatDestruction]

I think having 3 rarities is good enough.

A tier above gold will likely be platinum and that can bear too much of a resemblance to silver. We already know golds take significantly longer to level up and require significantly more resources than the two previous tiers combined. A tier above gold would have the fighter capped at lvl 60 and require an astronomical amount of coins and skill points to max out. Also if they made a new tier of fighters there will have to be a new tier of special moves and blockbusters to match, which would cost even more than the already expensive gold tier.

There’s already a lot of problems with the existing 3 fighter rarities, adding another tier would just cause more problems.

Basically what I wanted to say! XD

 

[Ryouhi]

Maybe giving fighters a branching path of passive abilities that can be unlocked by sacrificing dupe golds of the same fighter.
By only making one path of these abilities unlockable this could add to players making their fighters more unique, by being able to choose certain passives that synergize better with their own playstyle

 

[Hall☆weenQueen]

@Robokit @Tom Kulczewski @Psyche @MatDestruction @Fel @Shawsome @Zuzuska @Moisteriffic @Ryouhi
Thank you for all of your thoughtful responses, I honestly did not expect so much awesome feedback!
Please allow me to explain why I created this post in the first place.
There was a mobile game I used to play avidly, in fact, I played it for 3 straight years! To this day, I still think it's an achievement for a mobile game to last a player that long since most mobile games barely last months. The game had a lot of similarities to this one, such as strategic team building with various characters (which you also roll randomly) who take on challenges run by an AI (though they were much easier to predict). Power creeps are subtle, you don't see one coming until it's too late. This game made it inevitable since they released about 15 new characters bi-weekly. It took them a lot less effort since all you needed was some flashy art and powerful stats, but every character they released was stronger than the last (plus some extra special ones just for the meta). They started making things complicated with new systems in order to make existing fighters better and challenges harder so ultimately things just went out of control. It became so complex that a lot of late/ end-game players left because the earlier game was better since it was simpler.
I left for the same reason and would hate to have to do the same with this game-- which I also love. I'm glad my fellow players feel the same way, you all have amazing ideas of how to make this game better and the Devs really listen!
In response to your feedback:
@Robokit
I love how you made an outline for your response, you definitely thought things through and came up with a lot of great ideas! Just because you aren't a vet player, doesn't mean you have nothing to offer and you've certainly proven that true! Probably the only area I would disagree with you on is money. I believe a good mobile game lets non-paying players get just as far an paying ones, but at a (reasonably) slower pace. Currently, SGM seems to abide by that and it really helps reel in more players and possibly convince those who were non IAP players to change their minds. Your feedback is great though, I loved reading it!
@Psyche
I agree that there is no evident power creep and I'm glad for that-- I was just thinking ahead! I also have heard the rumors of a new tier, and there is little else they could mean but I do have an idea that I will probably put in a post of its own as to what can be productively done with gold fighters.
@MatDestruction and @moisterrific
I think I agree with you both the most. I actually would not mind a new tier, but if you think about all the changes that need to be implemented as well as the major adjustments to the dynamic of the game, it's really overwhelming. What it seems they are doing, and I think is a good idea, is adding more gold fighters with new modifiers and types of skills. So far they've released some new strictly AI versions of fighters, which can let the players get a feel for them before their release. If they add more story and maybe special Daily's (thinking back to an idea @Zuzuska had) then the game would be far more interesting.
@Ryouhi
You always have the most interesting ideas!!! You should flesh it out and make a whole new post for it because that has so much potential!

 

[Fel]

I think having 3 rarities is good enough.

A tier above gold will likely be platinum and that can bear too much of a resemblance to silver. We already know golds take significantly longer to level up and require significantly more resources than the two previous tiers combined. A tier above gold would have the fighter capped at lvl 60 and require an astronomical amount of coins and skill points to max out. Also if they made a new tier of fighters there will have to be a new tier of special moves and blockbusters to match, which would cost even more than the already expensive gold tier.

There’s already a lot of problems with the existing 3 fighter rarities, adding another tier would just cause more problems.

What if the new tier was accessible by evolve only (no base fighter that would require even more skill points or gold), had a distinguishable color and they didnt make moves of that tier? Theyre not forced to make the tier platinum or make moves of the new tier.
Perhaps itll have something to do with marquee abilities, no stat increase or level cap increase, but the boarder style changes and you get access to a marquee ability. Though at that point its probably easier to not make that a new tier

 

[luckykhanh]

I think rasing up the max level is enough, like it takes a few weeks to max out one gold. And if you have 6 maxed out gold you are allowed to level up all gold up to level 75. And I bet that this would take a few months to do it.
And why cant we do something like Pokemon go, having a Skullgirls stop at location around you, indicating a special challenge like accursed experiment with unique modifiers. It will make people to go out quite a lot actually lol.

 

[Fel]

I think rasing up the max level is enough, like it takes a few weeks to max out one gold. And if you have 6 maxed out gold you are allowed to level up all gold up to level 75. And I bet that this would take a few months to do it.
And why cant we do something like Pokemon go, having a Skullgirls stop at location around you, indicating a special challenge like accursed experiment with unique modifiers. It will make people to go out quite a lot actually lol.

Though that sounds fun Id imagine its tough to integrate such a different mode haha

 

[Inked]

piggybacking on what a bunch of people said before, a new tier just does not seem very appealing to me. whenever i think about something like that, a platinum tier or diamond or whatnot, i get very stressed. just imagining all the work that would take with maxing out, coins and skill points and just lots of time that a lot of people don’t want to spend... it doesn’t seem that fun, you know? it just seems like the same hard grind to get that new tier fighter. i manage to find some fun within grinding a gold to max level or maxing their skill tree, but with another tier... it doesn’t seem that enjoyable when i imagine it.

 

[Robokit]

Oh my @Hall☆weenQueen The dreaded creep is finally starting to set in, though looking encouragingly likely to have taken much of @Fel’s moderating spins on board in its implementation (with the exception of the new tier being about marquee abilities only, cuz from the twitter post it’s evident the fighter level is reset to 1 after evolving), so proly not so bad after all Now fingers crossed no evolved golds will be excluded from this tier-upgrade treatment.

 

[Hall☆weenQueen]

@Robokit
Yes I just saw the posts...
Adding new things to a game is not a bad thing at all... the power creep truly starts to set in when it becomes too complex and frequent to really keep up with. I won't sugar coat it-- some of these updates concern me. But as long as massive changes like these don't happen too often, we should be alright (fingers crossed). I actually have an idea which is another option of what to do with unnecessary golds, but it would require quite a bit of work (I guess I'm waiting for the right opportunity to post it). It doesn't seem that any golds would be excluded from this new tier, but I still agree with the masses that this tier would be a lot of work and effort to max out.

Everyone, let's hope this isn't the first steps to a major power creep!
I'm really anxious to hear all of your thoughts on the new updates though so please don't hold back!!!
@Psyche @Fel @moisterrific @Inked @luckykhanh @MatDestruction @Ryouhi @Zuzuska @Shawesome @Tom Kulczewski

 

[Gamma Ray]

My big concern is that they are throwing in Plat tier before they finish making the cast. I could respect another tier if it kept progressing worthwhile, but this turns keeping golds into the same chore it was when we were promised saving them would be worthwhile.

Will upgrading to Plat suddenly ruin the ability to do "Gold Only" story challenges as they arise?

The other concern is the Marquee ability since it comes across as a big middle finger to anyone who didn't want to throw points into the Energy tree in order to focus spending those points on the other variants.

I wouldn't mind if these changes came one at a time, but throwing all of these changes into one patch feels like they are trying to push harder and harder for purchasing in-game.

Short Version: This seems rough on the free-to-play/low budget groups given how much time golds currently take to level.

 

[MatDestruction]

Yeaaa... crap.

I don't like all this new thing. This Platinum tier... I don't even have a level 50 Gold Fighter yet (I like dividing exp to all my cast) and, by logic, Bronze needs 3 sacrifices, Silver 4, Gold I will need 5??

Yeah, I'm completely f***ed.
Also, having to level up my energy tree will be so boring... There it goes more 500k gold in stats that will not influence the fight. Also, it seems it will be very hard to level up Platinum Fighters. My guess is 20k XP just to get lvl 2

I was thinking that we were going to use duplicates Golds to get new Golds. Like, I thought it would be the "special way" to get those new fighters (Example: Trhow 5 Gold Fighters get a brand new and random one)

So, yeah, don't really like where all this is going but there's nothing I can do. I will probably stick to my Gold fighters even after maxing them out.
I hope Hidden Variable has good plans in mind