Fights Event Prize Fight scaling hurts for endgame

[Scorialimit]

I hit 150mil, doing about 20 minutes of autofight for every 10 minutes of playtime. I think the end result was about 5 hours of playtime. I know 30mil an hour is better than the average player can do and I shouldn't complain, but it was pretty unfun. I got the thing I wanted least, but getting any of the other 4 options wouldn't even have made it feel worth it. Just like my time was somewhat compensated.

I understand most players can't handle diamond PF scaling. I honestly wouldn't mind a separate diamond tier event PF with higher scaling if it meant I scored lower. I am completley fine with this separate diamond tier event PF having a separate leader board that it's harder to get 10% on as people who choose it are more willing to grind (especially if the PF is more enjoyable. The 4 silvers from 10% on the default PF would be a worthy sacrifice for an enjoyable climb to 150mil (or wherever the diamond relic ends up)

 

[evilgordo]

Sorry, but I'm not trying to disagree, but I'm a bit confused?

Did you reach 50M or 150M? Cuz the math of 5hour of playtime at a rate of 30M/hr implies you scored 150M.

But, the statement that the other "4 options" (rewards after 50M? or rewards top 100?) seems to indicate you have rewards left to reach, but stopped due to not being 'worth the time/effort'?

I guess your point it that the there is a plateau at which the EVENT PF difficulty and there for opponent fight scores no longer scale which makes for boring and/or slow score progress?

Regardless, it does seem as time moves forward, more and more players will reach the collection strength the you've already achieved and will need more opportunities to be challenged to remain an engaged player for longer play sessions.

 

[Scorialimit]

Did you reach 50M or 150M? Cuz the math of 5hour of playtime at a rate of 30M/hr implies you scored 150M.

That was a typo. I'm guessing you caught the comment before I corrected it.

But, the statement that the other "4 options" (rewards after 50M? or rewards top 100?) seems to indicate you have rewards left to reach

The diamond relic has 5 things you can get. Options was the wrong word for me to use since you don't choose yeah but I wasn't taking time thinking of a better one (which would be possibilities lol)

I guess your point it that the there is a plateau at which the EVENT PF difficulty and there for opponent fight scores no longer scale which makes for boring and/or slow score progress?

Nah, it's more that if I lose a match (which happens, I'm human) I can spend thirty minutes or more just getting back to a point where I'm having fun again. Technically the score progress is slower since the fighters are that weak, but I wouldn't even mind that if getting there were more enjoyable than it currently is.

 

[evilgordo]

Thank you for taking the time to clarify! I may have just read your post too early and my brain was till waking up

That was a typo. I'm guessing you caught the comment before I corrected it.

That was my guess. But you never know.

The diamond relic has 5 things you can get. Options was the wrong word for me to use since you don't choose yeah but I wasn't taking time thinking of a better one (which would be possibilities lol)

Ah, I see. 4 options, or rather the other 4 Diamond variants are of no interest. Agreed, getting a dupe or character you don't use makes the 150M climb rather anti-climatic, almost makes you feel like 'why did I bother'.

Nah, it's more that if I lose a match (which happens, I'm human) I can spend thirty minutes or more just getting back to a point where I'm having fun again. Technically the score progress is slower since the fighters are that weak, but I wouldn't even mind that if getting there were more enjoyable than it currently is.

Oh, so it's the beginning climb that's slow/boring. True...restarting a streak from 0 is a slog, especially those first 20+ fights.
While the streak continue option is nice and all, it would be better if you could pick where in your old streak you'd like to continue, since the game tracks and announces your streak count every 10 after hitting 30, it would be nice if you 'continue' at like 10/20/30/etc. or just any point in the previous streak, it's all the same theo cost per level, so why not let players pick?

 

[Scorialimit]

Thank you for taking the time to clarify! I may have just read your post too early and my brain was till waking up

Lol no worries, it's good to ask if you're not sure. Posts aren't helpful if they aren't clear lol

it would be better if you could pick where in your old streak you'd like to continue, since the game tracks and announces your streak count every 10 after hitting 30, it would be nice if you 'continue' at like 10/20/30/etc. or just any point in the previous streak, it's all the same theo cost per level, so why not let players pick?

I guess their fear is people would just choose the cheapest option but like, 75 theo is more than you make in a day, so restarting at 15 is still a large cost. I'd rather a real solution be implemented, but that would be enough if I just wanna grind and the PF is easy enough to go high consistently

 

[evilgordo]

I guess their fear is people would just choose the cheapest option but like, 75 theo is more than you make in a day, so restarting at 15 is still a large cost. I'd rather a real solution be implemented, but that would be enough if I just wanna grind and the PF is easy enough to go high consistently

I dunno, right now, and always, the cheapest option is 0...I'm betting the majority of experienced players are paying 0, which means that the streak continue usage is very, very situational; If it's too short a streak (under 10), there's no point in continuing and if it too long a streak, it's too expensive. I bet most times it is only used is when there are a few hours left, not days.

So, with that said, streak continue is a nice option when there's no time to start from 0...so, how do we 'fix' that initial climb on even day 1?

My thinking is with the 3 opponent options. In the beginning, fight scores (FS) are low and teams are mostly bronze/silver, then as the streak progresses, FS goes up and teams have less and less bronze/silvers and by streak 16 its all gold/Diamond teams and eventually all Diamond.
But, what if during the first 16 streak the options for teams were:

bronze/silver
silver/gold
gold/Diamond

and by say, streak 8 it's like

silver
gold
gold/diamond

and then by streak 16, it's back to the usual teams we currently see.

Or just keep the first 2 slots the same as it is now and make the 3rd slot the 'Diamond' difficulty the entire time.
It is obvious that the monthly PF is just a modified Gold character PF in terms of opponent selection and progression, but since everyone is on the same 150M mountain, endgame players need to skip the 'bunny slope' and hit the 'Black Diamond run' right from the start.

 

[TonyPartridge30]

The only thing I can think of that would address your concern would be something akin to collection-based matchmaking. But I think that would rub the majority of players the wrong way.

 

[Nefelibata]

Hmm, streak restart sucks especially if one loses the streak before reaching the point where real grinding starts. Sometimes, I find the streak continue option so sweet and great.

Or just keep the first 2 slots the same as it is now and make the 3rd slot the 'Diamond' difficulty the entire time

It'll be a good solution to cut to the chase but I think the problem resides with streak progression and how strong enemies one is facing. But it won't be the case for every player as I have seen many players not going for the diamond fighter relic but just starting prize fight relics.
It'll be better if the opponents are chosen based upon what team one fought last time if it was the weakest of all three that player will face slightly hard enemies but if one fought the strongest team then they will face harder enemies faster.
I dunno this suggestion might be bad but it would be great for players considering what milestone they are aiming for in the prize fight. This effect should become faint or vanish at 20+ streaks.

 

[TonyPartridge30]

Nah, it's more that if I lose a match (which happens, I'm human) I can spend thirty minutes or more just getting back to a point where I'm having fun again. Technically the score progress is slower since the fighters are that weak, but I wouldn't even mind that if getting there were more enjoyable than it currently is.

I get the frustration of losing a high streak and the meaningful PF score gains those fights provide. But on the other hand, isn't the point of losing a fight to be some sort of penalty or consequence? If you could instantly get back to the fights that net you large score gains, there wouldn't be any real risk. Alternatively, if it's just a matter of you just want interesting/difficult fights, I'm not sure how the game presents that in a way that meshes seamlessly with the score payouts. Like, for instance, let's say there was a new tier of Event PF where the fights were always difficult (maybe the game looks at your total collection or something to determine what opponent teams to pit against you). If the score payout is independent of fight difficulty (i.e., the early fights have low payouts while still being as difficult as high payout fights during high streaks), then people would get frustrated because it would be difficult to get to higher streaks for larger payouts, so some players would be losing their streaks often and it wouldn't be a very fun PF to try and play to get milestone prizes. If the score payouts are dependent on fight difficulty, like normal PF, then there would be no risk associated with loss in this theoretical PF because you'll be getting hard matches even at streak 0, and those matches would have high score payouts associated (not as high as if you had a high streak, but still high enough that you'd be making decent progress towards milestones even at low streaks).

I dunno, the way I see it is that the grinding through easy/uninteresting fights after you lose a PF streak is the penalty for having lost. That potential consequence is what makes it important to carefully consider what fights to do at high streaks and how to best approach them. It's like that fear of loss promotes strategic thinking. I always considered that the point of the scaling, and yea, losing your streak means you waste some time building it back up, but I don't think the solution is to change how PF scaling works. Instead I think we need a new type of content that provides high-level fights for endgame players that we can go to anytime we want. Holodeck doesn't really count because a) you need a ticket to get in and you can run out of tickets, and b) the teams are randomly generated and even if the fighters are maxed out, the team/move synergy often doesn't mesh well compared to teams formed by actual players. Something that could just be about fighting for the sake of fighting, rather than trying to get prizes or materials, so it wouldn't need to be regulated by time or entry fee since there wouldn't be any rewards associated. Maybe something like, a profile team, similar to your profile fighter, that people can challenge anytime by bringing up your profile in the game.

tl;dr I think PF system is mostly fine and it would be better to add something entirely new for endgame free-fighting.

 

[Scorialimit]

isn't the point of losing a fight to be some sort of penalty or consequence?

Based on the fact that it would take me under a minute to get to a fun fight in diamond PF if loading screens were a non issue, I'm going to say no.

Like, for instance, let's say there was a new tier of Event PF where the fights were always difficult (maybe the game looks at your total collection or something to determine what opponent teams to pit against you). If the score payout is independent of fight difficulty (i.e., the early fights have low payouts while still being as difficult as high payout fights during high streaks), then people would get frustrated because it would be difficult to get to higher streaks for larger payouts, so some players would be losing their streaks often and it wouldn't be a very fun PF to try and play to get milestone prizes. If the score payouts are dependent on fight difficulty, like normal PF, then there would be no risk associated with loss in this theoretical PF because you'll be getting hard matches even at streak 0, and those matches would have high score payouts associated (not as high as if you had a high streak, but still high enough that you'd be making decent progress towards milestones even at low streaks).

Diamond PFs are fun from streak 5 on. I haven't heard a ton of complaints because if people want easy fights then gold PF exists. That was my initial suggestion cause it's the least effort and proven effective. The only downside is top % placements would be harder, but even then top flat placements would be the same if not easier for people with weaker collections.

 

[evilgordo]

But that's the problem with Event PF vs the 4 tier character PFs, with character PFs, the user base is divided in separate 'mountains' to not only earn rewards, but also the difficulty/challenge level. But Event PFs everyone is on the same mountain, so Diamond PF (high level endgame) players have a much slower climb to reach the same challenge/enjoyment level that they have become accustomed to. The only 'positive' of everyone being in the same PF is that percentage reward cutoffs are (some what) lower, but I'm guessing the top 100 is more cut-throat.

I don't think it's too much of an ask to the Devs to somehow find a way to engage endgame players in the existing Event PF. I do think it's supposed to be a 'community event', so new tiers would defeat the point of a shared Event PF experience. And to that point, I do see Tony's perspective that adding a separate tier (with higher stakes/rewards) might frustrate players that can't quite cut it in a Diamond only level Event PF...if the complaint is truly based on lack challenge/fun and NOT about reward structure, I don't think it's too difficult to accommodate that request within the existing structure.

I dunno, let's say the average high streak for players in Scoria's level is 50. Maybe the first time you break 50 streak and finally lose, you 'unlock' Diamond mode and you can choose to start from 0 but with only Diamond level teams. I mean, let's face it, Scoria did the math, they can do 150M in 5hours of play time...what are they gonna do for the next 29 days?

It is a difficult balance for sure to have a single PF that can both challenge endgame players and not intimate/frustrate new/casual players, but I think it warrants further consideration/discussions.

 

[Reshiram18]

I feel it's time for me to throw my hat in this event PF scaling ring. First, a word on early streaks. In all the years I've been playing event PFs with the current scaling, I haven't taken any issue with the scaling not being on the same level as a diamond PF. I approach the early streaks with one of two mindsets: blitz through it with strong stuff, or just take some time to be more relaxed and pull out some weaker fun stuff for it. Neither of these mindsets gets boring to me because with option 1 I get through the easy stuff quickly while getting more a few more points out of said fights, and with option 2 I'm making my own fun. So maybe try changing up how you grind if you find early streaks boring?
As for the proposed balance changes: No, I don't think changing event PFs to diamond PF scaling is wise, it would mean that less developed rosters would struggle to have any fun playing with the event modifier. In fact I'm personally fine with leaving the scaling alone.

 

[evilgordo]

I feel it's time for me to throw my hat in this event PF scaling ring. First, a word on early streaks. In all the years I've been playing event PFs with the current scaling, I haven't taken any issue with the scaling not being on the same level as a diamond PF. I approach the early streaks with one of two mindsets: blitz through it with strong stuff, or just take some time to be more relaxed and pull out some weaker fun stuff for it. Neither of these mindsets gets boring to me because with option 1 I get through the easy stuff quickly while getting more a few more points out of said fights, and with option 2 I'm making my own fun. So maybe try changing up how you grind if you find early streaks boring?
As for the proposed balance changes: No, I don't think changing event PFs to diamond PF scaling is wise, it would mean that less developed rosters would struggle to have any fun playing with the event modifier. In fact I'm personally fine with leaving the scaling alone.

Certainly a valid perspective, I'm of a similar mind set. But, I can see how since the advent of the Diamond PF, that any other PF without that level of difficulty can feel tedious and boring, no matter how creative you can get; braindead-smash-smash-smash, next, rinse, repeat. And since these Event PFs have gone from 1 to 30 days and every month, the repetition is even more noticeable.

Also, any proposed 'diamond scaling' would and should be completely 'opt-in'. Everyone else that is fine with the current Event PF 'matchmaking' and progression, can still just play as they always have. But I don't think it's asking too much to have a 'diamond' matchmaking/progression option. Two of the most important things to the longevity of gatcha-games are engagement and retention, and the two are NOT mutually exclusive. Over the past year or two, there have been many advancements regarding sources of XP and other consumables and now 'newer' players can close the collection gap and reach 'endgame' collection levels much quicker than we could 3-4 years ago. So, if there's no challenge to keep endgame players engaged, what's to keep them around? The few players in Scoria's position now, will increase very quickly.

Is it a priority? Probably not, but there's no harm in voicing our preferences/expectations to the community and/or Devs.
But we do know that 'endgame' player content has been on the Devs radar, but maybe that content doesn't have to entirely be a new separate mode. Food for thought as they say. If anything I find it interesting hearing how other players play SGM.

 

[Scorialimit]

Okay I don't know how I phrased the OP so poorly every response misunderstood. I hope the updated OP is more clear in what I am requesting.

If you don't think separate event prize fight for people farther into the game is a good idea, that's perfectly fine and you should express that. Reasonable minds may disagree. But I hope I've made it 100% unequivocally clear that I am not saying we need to change the default event PF, but add a new stronger tier to the current one. If there is a wording that would make it even more clear, fell free to let me know. But I feel like most the arguments are saying why this thing I didn't want is a bad idea. I agree it's a bad idea. That's why I didn't want that.

 

[Reshiram18]

Okay I don't know how I phrased the OP so poorly every response misunderstood. I hope the updated OP is more clear in what I am requesting.

If you don't think separate event prize fight for people farther into the game is a good idea, that's perfectly fine and you should express that. Reasonable minds may disagree. But I hope I've made it 100% unequivocally clear that I am not saying we need to change the default event PF, but add a new stronger tier to the current one. If there is a wording that would make it even more clear, fell free to let me know. But I feel like most the arguments are saying why this thing I didn't want is a bad idea. I agree it's a bad idea. That's why I didn't want that.

Separate as in a selectable difficulty or a whole other event PF tab? It's a very important distinction, and before anything else goes down I want to ensure we have our bearings straight when talking about things like rewards and balance in the proposed environment.

 

[evilgordo]

Okay I don't know how I phrased the OP so poorly every response misunderstood. I hope the updated OP is more clear in what I am requesting.

If you don't think separate event prize fight for people farther into the game is a good idea, that's perfectly fine and you should express that. Reasonable minds may disagree. But I hope I've made it 100% unequivocally clear that I am not saying we need to change the default event PF, but add a new stronger tier to the current one. If there is a wording that would make it even more clear, fell free to let me know. But I feel like most the arguments are saying why this thing I didn't want is a bad idea. I agree it's a bad idea. That's why I didn't want that.

I think the original post/request was clear. And I will apologize if my responses kinda hijacked your OP, but while I do agree that the request for more challenge is valid, I do not think that a separate tier is the solution and I offered alternatives rather than just saying, 'I don't want another tier'.

It's just that IMHO that creating 'endgame/diamond' tiers to the Event PF ultimately separates the player base, because, in the past the Devs have made 'diamond' level rewards to go with it. And the only 'endgame' mode we currently have is the Character Diamond PF, which intentionally separates the player base to create that challenge for each tier. Doing a similar thing I feel goes against the 'community' aspect of the monthly PF (here's some cool rewards, everyone climb this 150M goal in 30 days!)

IF the goal is to just create more challenge with shorter streaks for endgame players, I think it can and should be achieved without a) altering the current Event PF and b) without a 'new' tier.

It is obvious that the OG Bronze/Silver/Gold PF tiers from 5 years ago had no idea that players collections would be so large AND strong and with the advent of Diamonds, it kinda broke the system. And the fix for this unforeseen power creep has been 'add a new tier' and not fix the matchmaking. I think if better 'pairing/matchmaking' can be achieved in the Event PF, it can be utilized in future content/modes. Otherwise, 'new tiers' are just a band-aid to a larger and growing problem.

 

[Scorialimit]

Separate as in a selectable difficulty or a whole other event PF tab? It's a very important distinction, and before anything else goes down I want to ensure we have our bearings straight when talking about things like rewards and balance in the proposed environment.

Good question. Different tier is definitely the idea, as otherwise the people who do the regular one in a day just have double rewards. Although I will say I do think many players in my boat would be fine with the milestones as they are in that PF. Some events like this one are amazing for EXP grinding. But I can only talk to the people active either here or another SG focused area, where mostly hardcore players are lol

It's just that IMHO that creating 'endgame/diamond' tiers to the Event PF ultimately separates the player base, because, in the past the Devs have made 'diamond' level rewards to go with it. And the only 'endgame' mode we currently have is the Character Diamond PF, which intentionally separates the player base to create that challenge for each tier. Doing a similar thing I feel goes against the 'community' aspect of the monthly PF (here's some cool rewards, everyone climb this 150M goal in 30 days!)

True, it could be too niche for them to justify the time on if they don't tune the rewards to make it more attractive. I wonder if there's a way to make it great for later game players but not ideal for earlier game players. My first thought goes to retakes, I would take one over an event relic easily. But that's not very thematic.

Fix the matchmaking could be have the third slot scale harder. More points early, more exp early, you can easily just not click that one.