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Collection Skill Drop/Upgrade revision

HeGunz

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Ignoring need for a dedicated loadout/template system to make skills easier to swap around and screenshotting of defense loadouts as I believe that is already in the development team's mind; shall we instead take a moment to discuss the actual upgrade system of skills as it stands?

RECAP
Currently the amount of RNG involved in setting up an optimized loadout feel unnecessarily archaic. As it stands you need to first get lucky on a daily or a relic/skill pack opening to even get a useful skill (the amount of burst/taunts/fleshstep-like skills I sell monthly pains me), you then need to hope it rolls at least 2 (ideally 3) usable stat lines while dodging flat HP and ATK values and finally we get to pray that the actual upgrades roll properly or at least into a salvageable state. We couple this with the cost of upgrading the skill past lvl 12 (2 million coins for the final 3 levels) which while most times isn't necessary, the 2 seconds shaved off a SM's cooldown or the effect upgrade on some BB/SM feels mandatory, especially in high-tier play. Gaining a 3rd stack of precision or gaining an additional 15% chance to proc/dispel/debuff is often game changing.

Possible improvements
1. Rescale all effects and cooldowns to cap at Lvl 12 (possibly even 10 if we're being generous). This allows the average player to access the full potential of their fighter's kit without breaking the bank and allows them to further invest into more variants to utilize these skills they've worked to level up.

2. With the above in mind: consider allowing players to allocate the last 3 (5 if we cap at Lvl 10) upgrades into a stat line of their choice. This would more than justify allowing skills to remain at 2.9 million coins (the final 2-2.3m being Lvls 12/10 to 15) and personally I think would alleviate a lot of the frustration in overcapping second and tertiary stats.

3. Allow players to select skills to either omit entirely or prioritize the drop rate of; at least for the treasure/boss nodes in a fighter's daily event/character specific PF milestone rewards, if not everywhere a skill can be obtained.

4. More agency over stat lines on a skill itself. I would suggest this be accomplished via consumables you can obtain in limited quantities when completing weekly missions/events, perhaps with larger quantities as an upper milestone reward on monthly fights. They could allow you to reroll (1) stat line on a skill to another random stat per consumable used or perhaps allow the user to merge the stat lines from an ideal rolled but generally undesired skill to a different skill of the same rarity, of their choosing (3/3 Center Stage's stats being merged into a Battle Opera for example)

This could allow gradual progression toward optimization of a fighter's bonus stat pool while not completely discounting the RNG of getting a god-tier roll from a daily. Such consumable(s) would ideally be limited stock, if at all available within the cash shop.


TL;DR
Current means of obtaining and upgrading skills feels real bad. Less RNG, more value for the time we put into upgrading our skills please.
 

HeGunz

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For reference here is the current cost to upgrade a gold rarity skill at each level and the general benefits.

skills.png
 

Dusty00

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Ignoring need for a dedicated loadout/template system to make skills easier to swap around and screenshotting of defense loadouts as I believe that is already in the development team's mind; shall we instead take a moment to discuss the actual upgrade system of skills as it stands?

RECAP
Currently the amount of RNG involved in setting up an optimized loadout feel unnecessarily archaic. As it stands you need to first get lucky on a daily or a relic/skill pack opening to even get a useful skill (the amount of burst/taunts/fleshstep-like skills I sell monthly pains me), you then need to hope it rolls at least 2 (ideally 3) usable stat lines while dodging flat HP and ATK values and finally we get to pray that the actual upgrades roll properly or at least into a salvageable state. We couple this with the cost of upgrading the skill past lvl 12 (2 million coins for the final 3 levels) which while most times isn't necessary, the 2 seconds shaved off a SM's cooldown or the effect upgrade on some BB/SM feels mandatory, especially in high-tier play. Gaining a 3rd stack of precision or gaining an additional 15% chance to proc/dispel/debuff is often game changing.

Possible improvements
1. Rescale all effects and cooldowns to cap at Lvl 12 (possibly even 10 if we're being generous). This allows the average player to access the full potential of their fighter's kit without breaking the bank and allows them to further invest into more variants to utilize these skills they've worked to level up.

2. With the above in mind: consider allowing players to allocate the last 3 (5 if we cap at Lvl 10) upgrades into a stat line of their choice. This would more than justify allowing skills to remain at 2.9 million coins (the final 2-2.3m being Lvls 12/10 to 15) and personally I think would alleviate a lot of the frustration in overcapping second and tertiary stats.

3. Allow players to select skills to either omit entirely or prioritize the drop rate of; at least for the treasure/boss nodes in a fighter's daily event/character specific PF milestone rewards, if not everywhere a skill can be obtained.

4. More agency over stat lines on a skill itself. I would suggest this be accomplished via consumables you can obtain in limited quantities when completing weekly missions/events, perhaps with larger quantities as an upper milestone reward on monthly fights. They could allow you to reroll (1) stat line on a skill to another random stat per consumable used or perhaps allow the user to merge the stat lines from an ideal rolled but generally undesired skill to a different skill of the same rarity, of their choosing (3/3 Center Stage's stats being merged into a Battle Opera for example)

This could allow gradual progression toward optimization of a fighter's bonus stat pool while not completely discounting the RNG of getting a god-tier roll from a daily. Such consumable(s) would ideally be limited stock, if at all available within the cash shop.


TL;DR
Current means of obtaining and upgrading skills feels real bad. Less RNG, more value for the time we put into upgrading our skills please.
Fully support every idea here. You’ve done a great job summarizing all the punch points with moves and a larger underlying archaic design direction that pushes long term players away. Too much RNG and no way to steadily make progress towards a goal = people move on to something else.

The did mention something about move agency in the last roadmap and I hope this post provides helpful suggestions for the devs to consider.
 

Nefelibata

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Well, this is a problem. I don't remember last when I pushed a move past level 3. The stat roll is kinda annoying. I really liked your ideas, especially sacrificing undesired moves for stats. I also want to consider the evolving the lower tier moves to gold, it's okay if it gives only 1 or 2 stat(s). It will make silver and bronze moves viable as they are not even being considered for investment but are cheap and easily available so getting a good stat on them is faster.
 
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Stone

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like the idea of keeping some of the rng when rolls are cheaper, and stats being pickable when expensive. I wouldn't see need (it would still be very nice, just not as required) to change the max lvl 15 upgrade to lvl 12 if that were the case though, as the self selection makes up for it.
 

HeGunz

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like the idea of keeping some of the rng when rolls are cheaper, and stats being pickable when expensive. I wouldn't see need (it would still be very nice, just not as required) to change the max lvl 15 upgrade to lvl 12 if that were the case though, as the self selection makes up for it.
Being able to choose where final stat rolls land was a bit of an after thought (albeit one I very much like) but primary goal would be a lower barrier of entry while both retaining a reason for deeper investment.

The difference between a 42 and 50% pierce you may not feel as much but the 25/35/50% chance to proc say Drag'N'Bite chance to dispel the enemy's final stand is and allowing the more casual/lower level players his those breakpoints which are currently locked behind the paywall of 3 million coins.

Being able to efficiently play for example an Xbot or even Wild Card for 1.4m/2.8m (Assuming lvl 10 or 12 cap on effects) coins instead of the current 8.7m coins to get (3) SMs to a 10 second cooldown.

We've slowly gained more and greater streams of coins over the last 5 years, reduced the cost of and increased access to keys and skill points but have yet to actually tackle the greatest time sink which I feel is leveling up skills.
 

palti

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Ignoring need for a dedicated loadout/template system to make skills easier to swap around and screenshotting of defense loadouts as I believe that is already in the development team's mind; shall we instead take a moment to discuss the actual upgrade system of skills as it stands?

RECAP
Currently the amount of RNG involved in setting up an optimized loadout feel unnecessarily archaic. As it stands you need to first get lucky on a daily or a relic/skill pack opening to even get a useful skill (the amount of burst/taunts/fleshstep-like skills I sell monthly pains me), you then need to hope it rolls at least 2 (ideally 3) usable stat lines while dodging flat HP and ATK values and finally we get to pray that the actual upgrades roll properly or at least into a salvageable state. We couple this with the cost of upgrading the skill past lvl 12 (2 million coins for the final 3 levels) which while most times isn't necessary, the 2 seconds shaved off a SM's cooldown or the effect upgrade on some BB/SM feels mandatory, especially in high-tier play. Gaining a 3rd stack of precision or gaining an additional 15% chance to proc/dispel/debuff is often game changing.

Possible improvements
1. Rescale all effects and cooldowns to cap at Lvl 12 (possibly even 10 if we're being generous). This allows the average player to access the full potential of their fighter's kit without breaking the bank and allows them to further invest into more variants to utilize these skills they've worked to level up.

2. With the above in mind: consider allowing players to allocate the last 3 (5 if we cap at Lvl 10) upgrades into a stat line of their choice. This would more than justify allowing skills to remain at 2.9 million coins (the final 2-2.3m being Lvls 12/10 to 15) and personally I think would alleviate a lot of the frustration in overcapping second and tertiary stats.

3. Allow players to select skills to either omit entirely or prioritize the drop rate of; at least for the treasure/boss nodes in a fighter's daily event/character specific PF milestone rewards, if not everywhere a skill can be obtained.

4. More agency over stat lines on a skill itself. I would suggest this be accomplished via consumables you can obtain in limited quantities when completing weekly missions/events, perhaps with larger quantities as an upper milestone reward on monthly fights. They could allow you to reroll (1) stat line on a skill to another random stat per consumable used or perhaps allow the user to merge the stat lines from an ideal rolled but generally undesired skill to a different skill of the same rarity, of their choosing (3/3 Center Stage's stats being merged into a Battle Opera for example)

This could allow gradual progression toward optimization of a fighter's bonus stat pool while not completely discounting the RNG of getting a god-tier roll from a daily. Such consumable(s) would ideally be limited stock, if at all available within the cash shop.


TL;DR
Current means of obtaining and upgrading skills feels real bad. Less RNG, more value for the time we put into upgrading our skills please.
yes, the idea of scaling all effects and cooldowns to level 12 is good. and from 12 to 15 it can be done that all 3 characteristics are pumped, because now it is not cost-effective to pump above even 10 lvl. you spend a lot of money and you get a pig in a poke. I also support pumping techniques from bronze to gold, for me now any technique below gold immediately turns into coins)
 

Stone

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Being able to choose where final stat rolls land was a bit of an after thought (albeit one I very much like) but primary goal would be a lower barrier of entry while both retaining a reason for deeper investment.

The difference between a 42 and 50% pierce you may not feel as much but the 25/35/50% chance to proc say Drag'N'Bite chance to dispel the enemy's final stand is and allowing the more casual/lower level players his those breakpoints which are currently locked behind the paywall of 3 million coins.

Being able to efficiently play for example an Xbot or even Wild Card for 1.4m/2.8m (Assuming lvl 10 or 12 cap on effects) coins instead of the current 8.7m coins to get (3) SMs to a 10 second cooldown.

We've slowly gained more and greater streams of coins over the last 5 years, reduced the cost of and increased access to keys and skill points but have yet to actually tackle the greatest time sink which I feel is leveling up skills.
Great argument, I see that I was looking at it wrongly. Thanks for making this point and you are absolutely right. Make the max upgrade of a move easier (read: cheaper) to unlock indeed.
 
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HeGunz

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yes, the idea of scaling all effects and cooldowns to level 12 is good. and from 12 to 15 it can be done that all 3 characteristics are pumped, because now it is not cost-effective to pump above even 10 lvl. you spend a lot of money and you get a pig in a poke. I also support pumping techniques from bronze to gold, for me now any technique below gold immediately turns into coins)
Thought of upgrading all 3 at once never even occurred to me, I'm hesitant only because of potential power creep beyond what we already have when granting 45% additional stats. Could be interesting in context of every fighter having access to both accuracy and pierce?

A means* to upgrade from a bronze or silver tier to gold is likely the right call while we're poking about with the system although I personally think less crucial. Perhaps we instead of selling unwanted skills for coins (most of us blind trash anything below gold I imagine) we could recycle them into shards for the theoretical reroll consumable in addition to being able to sell them for coins.
 
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Wulfden

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I'm really digging the suggestions you've made thus far, and I have to agree. I haven't played since before Annie was released so realizing that the move system has been still more or less the same (beyond stat changes ofc) is a bit disappointing.

I do think it's about time we have ways to upgrade lower tiers (or at the very least the ability to reroll stats), but I'm curious as to how that will go. Maybe, and considering we already chip enough as it is to upgrade, we can buy with canopy coins the ability to reroll stats of our choosing / a new set altogether.
 
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palti

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I remembered about another option that I had already suggested on the forum (some other games have such a system). now the number of stats and their "strength" (the percentage by which they increase the characteristic) increases from 1 to 3 from bronze to gold, respectively). actually, it can be done so that in addition to increasing stats, there is also a decrease, and then techniques in which there is a negative stat increase other characteristics more. because now there are only 4 universal stats, namely health and hp in number and percentage, because the rest have a "ceiling", above which it is impossible to get.
 

palti

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In general, I would like to be able to use the same technique on different colors. It would save a lot of time and canopy. Personally, I do not need to look for a reception with the same or at least similar stats for each of the characters. Then invest in the hope that the desired characteristic will increase. Reuse would make a big breakthrough in the development of the system of techniques. That's my opinion)
 

palti

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In general, I would like to be able to use the same technique on different colors. It would save a lot of time and canopy. Personally, I do not need to look for a reception with the same or at least similar stats for each of the characters. Then invest in the hope that the desired characteristic will increase. Reuse would make a big breakthrough in the development of the system of techniques. That's my opinion)
In general, a recent patch introduced what I wanted to see, but not quite the way I had in mind. Yes, the need to rearrange 1 reception disappeared, but the problem remained. Now it is still necessary to spend a lot of kenopi on receptions with different statuses. Of course, if the same characters suit you on all the characters, you can simply rearrange the build, but you will have to do this before each game, because it does not attach to the character. I mean, 2 characters can't have one build at the same time. maybe someone at low levels will constantly rearrange, but it doesn't seem convenient to me and some other players, in the end you can lose the technique that is needed on a particular character.