1. [2018/06/22]
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Fights Ai spamming Block Mid-Dash or Far Away

Discussion in 'Feedback & Suggestions' started by Am_Suitcase, Jul 16, 2019.

  1. Am_Suitcase

    Am_Suitcase Member

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    Your good ol suitcase is back again but this time it is something that...kinda peeves him. Something that has constantly peeved this luggage since 2.6.

    Intercepting; a strong and useful strategy to avoid getting touched and therefore avoid getting bb3'd. Sounds good on paper right? Practice....yes it does work!....sometimes....

    and by sometimes... I mean when the AI doesn't spam block dash multiple times in a row:


    Context: Offscreen but, the Painwheel I had was lost because Parasoul had been doing this 7 times repeatedly. While I did win the match, it was extremely close of a time out because of this block spam.

    Why I find it frustrating:
    More often than not, the ai spams block when I attempt to intercept. Had I used a launcher or a trip or if this was on the live wire node on rift (Which has happened a fair lot for me before for this issue), this would've ended in a loss for me.

    I hate to sound petty or salty which I cannot deny that I am a bit feeling that way, but its been a constant issue for me and makes me wonder if intercepting can even help at all at times.

    In terms of how many times the AI do this. I've fought the characters multiple times to see how their ai is. My conclusions are this:
    • Parasoul, Valentine and Double AI - Once they do this, they almost will constantly do it. Its gotten to the point where it's just flat out frustrating to even consider intercepting.
    • Cerebella,Ms. Fortune, Filia, Squigly and Big Band AI - Sometimes they will be as frustrating as Parasoul, Valentine and Double. However they don't seem to do it as much. With that being said, I've had them both spam block mid dash or from far away. More often then not this leads to time out simply because simply dashing at them leads to them retaliating back, forcing you to block and risked getting bb3'd or hope in vain that they come to you. It can be especially annoying when its a reactive armor node, or the opponents are Meow N Furevers and Futile Resistance Big Bands.
    • Painwheel, Peacock and Robo Fortune AI - Do they block mid dash? At times, yes. However they don't (THANKFULLY) do it often. It can still be annoying but in their case, I can at least see it coming. Honestly I think their the only ones where their block mid-dash isn't annoying or atleast...tolerable.
    • Beowulf AI - After experimenting enough times. I can conclude Beowulf is the only character who doesn't spam or even block mid dash. If anything, the issue is intercepting without getting hit by his dash but that's another story for another time since so far, it hasn't been the worst thing i've had.

    Now are there ways around this annoying ai tactic? I suppose? But having tried a huge amount of times with these methods. The trouble is more than it's worth:
    • DO THE BLOCK YOURSELF - After that one tweet that showed that in 3.2, characters can safely approach and attack their opponents on block without being punished by blockbusters and other attacks. Now thats nice and all. But sometimes, the ai will NOT use the BB even with all their bb's full. This means either try to back dash out of there or risk a bb3. So this tactic I cannot always rely on.
    • GRABBING - As seen in the video, I did grab the Parasoul spamming this block multiple times. Sometimes it works but usually the AI will simply escape the throw. This is especially risky when it is a Cerebella spamming block mid dash. As you put yourself at risk grabbing her.
    • GRAB-BASED BBS and SPECIALS- Examples of these types of block busters include:
      • Geatish Trepak
      • Lupine Pummel
      • Diamond Drop
      • Merry-Go-Rilla
    • They do work don't get me wrong but you always have these available being either on cooldown or need meter. They're probably the best bet at the moment sadly.
    • BB3 - BB3s suffer a similar fate to Grab-Based BBs except its worse for them because of the amount of meter needed for them. That and some hit a lot of times so you may end up triggering an SA or modifier and possibly time out.
    • HEAD HUNTER and OVERCLOCKED - Both of these variant's have SAs regarding towards unblock able attacks and both do a great job dealing with this issue. I have a Marquee'd Overclocked for this occasion after a lucky pull. The issue here is both of these fighters aren't exactly simple to obtain and your reliant on RNG and having enough resources to pump into them. They are still excellent fighters but RNG is not on our sides usually.
    I feel like the ai should either:
    1. Stop the ai from blocking middash altogether. OR
    2. Reduced the amount of times they do this at the very least if it has to, for some unknown reason need to stay. Maybe around the Peacock,Painwheel, Robo Fortune level.
    Overall, this has been one of my biggest frustrations in this case at the current moment and I feel like their should be at least some kind of consideration in dealing with the AI that spam block like this.
     
    #1 Am_Suitcase, Jul 16, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
    Psyche likes this.
  2. Fel

    Fel wuf
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    In the clip you posted you were just attacking too early. I do agree that the timing is too tight to execute consistently if we're expected to wait for the AI to go into the startup of their dash before we can punish.
    @Liam mentioned that Robo's dash attack was pretty bad with 16 frames of startup. That's still only around a fifth of a second that players have to input a jab. Considering that some devices are laggy, that's quite a difficult tech.
    I don't want intercepts to become too easy since they're very strong and effective, but I think they're a bit too difficult to execute consistently enough currently.
     
  3. Am_Suitcase

    Am_Suitcase Member

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    Timing isn't too bad but I do admit it can sometimes affect me badly. I see what you mean though. Sometimes, intercepts are difficult to do consistently and I do find myself getting killed easily from that. Some have an easier time than others and it depends on whose dashing towards them as well.

    Regarding the clip though, Parasoul had actually blocked before I started the attacks. Its mostly just as I said, them constantly blocking prematurely. The ai does similar things including when im blocking myself.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  4. NullEins

    NullEins New Member

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    i‘m a beginner and i saw a video about intercepting and wanted to try it but somehow it didn‘t really work for me. so i thought well maybe i‘m still too bad at the game but the video i watched was from 2018 so i finally got to the conclusion that the AI must have changed since then. now you‘re confirming my theory and it‘s frustrating to me because the AI can be so hard to beat from time to time...
    i don‘t get it sometimes. it pulls off moves i don‘t even know how they work. like blocking in the middle of my combo or blocking when it just fell to the ground and should be vulnerable to a blockbuster. and an all time favourite: breaking my block for no known reason.
    i really love the game and i like that it‘s so challenging but sometimes it‘s just frustrating with the current AI.
     
    Psyche likes this.
  5. Luke

    Luke Well-Known Member

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    Herd that’s because you were tapping too “slow”. Personally I just can’t believe that.
    This have a rational explanation. Different fighters have different weight class and lighter fighters stay in air shorter amount of time/frames.

    Back to intercept. I found there’s a distance factor too far away the ai will likely to charge longer and easier to intercept but the stage is only so long and you can only back dash a handful of times. Or be near to the ai, just outside the rage of throw but inside the range of cerabella’s charge attack, I find this distance ai rarely break dash with block. Downside is if you eyeball it wrong you get unblockable charge attack from Bella and that’s very bad.

    Edit: that bing said it’s all guess work and dumb luck when I do any intercept.
     
  6. xcapibara

    xcapibara Active Member

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    Me either, especially considering that the ai constantly does exactly that: “tapping too slow”. I’m sure you’ve experienced that dirty trick the ai uses when it does ground combo in slow motion, with like half a second between each hit and it still counts as a true continuous combo that get you punished if you try to counterattack. Thats something the player cannot do, at all.

    When it comes to dash intercepts i’ve found that some characters are just better than others to reliably pull it off, i believe it depends on how large the hitbox on their jab is, where it hits the opponent and the dash 1 you’re trying to intercept.
     
    Luke likes this.
  7. Liam

    Liam !Robot
    Hidden Variable Dev

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    The AI, and the player, are using the same characters. The AI controls the character by sending inputs to it, the same way that you send swipes and tap inputs to control them.

    This way, we know for sure that the AI isn't capable of doing anything that the player can't do.

    What you've described in your last sentence is known as a "frame trap" in the fighting game community. The AI is creating a small gap between two hits that is too small to fully finish an attack and hit him them with it, but large enough to start an attack. Attempting to attack in these windows with a non invincible attack will lead to you getting hit and punished.

    If you use an invincible move during these small windows, you'll be able to hit the opponent. When you attempt to create these "frame traps" on the AI by delaying your taps (tapping slowly, as mentioned above), they will frequently use Blockbusters.

    Hope that helps!
     
    #7 Liam, Jul 18, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
  8. Starsmore

    Starsmore Active Member

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    You sure? Because if they tag out and I start an unblockable they're able to tag in, pass thru it and start a blockbuster without being hit. I can understand when it happens with some unblockables like Cerebella's, because i can get the wrong timing, but hey're able to avoid and counter Squigly and Robo Fortune.
     
  9. Fel

    Fel wuf
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    When tagging in after a death, the tagging in player is invulnerable until they can act. If they use an invincible blockbuster as soon as possible, they can avoid the hit (provided that it isn't a BB3). You can do this as well.
     
  10. Starsmore

    Starsmore Active Member

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    It happens also with normal tag, not only when i beat an opponent member.
     
  11. Fel

    Fel wuf
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    All normal tags are attacks and have invincibility frames that make it either impossible or very difficult to intercept. If an enemy is raw tagging, just block as they're all punishable on block.
     
  12. Liam

    Liam !Robot
    Hidden Variable Dev

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    Very sure! Creating separate versions of characters just for the AI to control would be a nightmare. :p

    As Fel mentioned, some tag ins have invincibility. This invincibility also applies to the player.
     

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