Fights AI turtling

[Maelwolf]

I was really enjoying the game prior to the latest patch. The AI needed a bit of work as it made some silly choices, but overall the game was fast paced and fun. Now the AI just turtles and counters. It doesn't really involve more skill, just a slower more methodical play style. It's just overall less enjoyable to play. This feeling seems reaffirmed seeing what other players have been saying about the update.

 

[moisterrific]

I was really enjoying the game prior to the latest patch. The AI needed a bit of work as it made some silly choices, but overall the game was fast paced and fun. Now the AI just turtles and counters. It doesn't really involve more skill, just a slower more methodical play style. It's just overall less enjoyable to play. This feeling seems reaffirmed seeing what other players have been saying about the update.

Which type of AI are you specifically referring to? Prize fight? Daily events? Story? The AI levels are different for each difficulty. I've found little to no changes in AI behaviour in story and daily events. But playing the expert prize fight and going on a 20 win streak makes them much more challenging. Most special moves become useless, since they'll always block it and you're left open to attack afterwards.

 

[Maelwolf]

Which type of AI are you specifically referring to? Prize fight? Daily events? Story? The AI levels are different for each difficulty. I've found little to no changes in AI behaviour in story and daily events. But playing the expert prize fight and going on a 20 win streak makes them much more challenging. Most special moves become useless, since they'll always block it and you're left open to attack afterwards.

Ive definitely noticed it in daily and prize fights, not sure where others are finding it most prevalent. In dailies, it's the Expert difficulty fights I've been playing that have just ceased to be fun and become a grind. It's not that they are unbeatable, simply that combat has gone from fast and exciting to waiting and countering. Honestly it's the pseudo-challenge I have issue with in Injustice 2, where rather than skill it's just patience in repeating simple patterns of attacking and blocking.

 

[moisterrific]

Ive definitely noticed it in daily and prize fights, not sure where others are finding it most prevalent. In dailies, it's the Expert difficulty fights I've been playing that have just ceased to be fun and become a grind. It's not that they are unbeatable, simply that combat has gone from fast and exciting to waiting and countering. Honestly it's the pseudo-challenge I have issue with in Injustice 2, where rather than skill it's just patience in repeating simple patterns of attacking and blocking.

I thought it was too easy before, the AI had little resistance and I could win most fights just by swiping one side of the screen with my thumb. Now it's somewhat more challenging but there are instances where I see the AI just block indefinitely until I try to throw them or use an unblockable charge attack. But this is only happening when I'm on a 40 something win streak in expert prize fights.

 

[Maelwolf]

I thought it was too easy before, the AI had little resistance and I could win most fights just by swiping one side of the screen with my thumb. Now it's somewhat more challenging but there are instances where I see the AI just block indefinitely until I try to throw them or use an unblockable charge attack. But this is only happening when I'm on a 40 something win streak in expert prize fights.

The AI definitely needed a bit of a boost, but turtling is never the way to go to create difficulty. Now the AI just blocks and counter-throws. I can't see new players spending much time with the game the way it is now before just getting frustrated. I have levelled up characters and experience with the combat mechanics and I'm already getting bored with the post-patch combat.

 

[Osterus]

Yeah it's so super frustrating when the AI just blocks.

And 20 seconds later still blocking and every time I throw they counter. Throw counter. Throw counter.

Block block block.

Throw counter.

Block.

Block.

It's really a pain and the only way to really force some fights is to just let them kill you so your special charges up LOL.

I find it easier if you just have a strong team just let them kill you and don't fight the AI. Then just use your blockbuster to 1 hit ko them.

 

[moisterrific]

I've played over a hundred fights in the gold prize fight, instances of AI turtling and odd AI behaviour turned out to be pretty rare. I think the level of AI difficulty is just right in high win streak fights. Sure, they can block and break throws most of the time now, but their attack pattern is still easy to figure out. If you're having a hard time just wait out their full combo chain by blocking, then hit them with a counter attack. Also I found that any Cerebella fighter is very useful now since if you break the AI's throw they'll always be staggered which gives you a huge window of opportunity to hit them hard.

Once you figure out how to beat the new AI, the game still feels fast paced as before.

 

[Maelwolf]

I've played over a hundred fights in the gold prize fight, instances of AI turtling and odd AI behaviour turned out to be pretty rare. I think the level of AI difficulty is just right in high win streak fights. Sure, they can block and break throws most of the time now, but their attack pattern is still easy to figure out. If you're having a hard time just wait out their full combo chain by blocking, then hit them with a counter attack. Also I found that any Cerebella fighter is very useful now since if you break the AI's throw they'll always be staggered which gives you a huge window of opportunity to hit them hard.

Once you figure out how to beat the new AI, the game still feels fast paced as before.

You seem to be alone then. Perhaps it has to do with your collection being more advanced, or you are simply better than the majority of players. The reality is, if the game launches with the current AI, I can't see many new players sticking with it for long. A buddy of mine just started the game a few days ago and was obsessed. Post-patch that obsession has become frustration and boredom. Posters on sites such as toucharcade have likewise expressed resignation that the game just isn't enjoyable anymore. If it still works for you, great, but I wouldn't count on that translating to a successful future.

I have 7 golds around level 25ish, and a bunch of silvers. I'm finding I can still progress, but whereas it used to be fast-paced, fluid excitement, now it's just a slog. Defensive play just isn't as fun as offensive play, and currently the combat overall feels clunky. The AI generally follows a pattern of blocking and countering, forcing players into dull routines of hit-and-run. Pre-patch, the game was more combo-centric, and when I did lose a match I felt like I could level up a bit, and/or change abilities and strategies to increase the chance next time. Now it often feels a lot more based on having characters strong enough to take hits and build up for specials that can one-hit kill.

Considering grinding has become a lot harder for new players, the meager 600 gold for redoing story fights reduced to just over 100, how are newer players supposed to build up a collection that can compete? Will many have to patience to even bother? Heck, I loved the game pre-patch and have a solid collection and I'm not sure how much longer I'll stick with it. Newer soft-launch players are even less inclined to keep with it. If only the top end soft-launch players still enjoy playing it doesn't say much for the longevity of the game.

 

[Cellsai]

I agree with @moisterrific that the heavier blocking AI is a lot of fun at higher streaks. It makes them feel very tense where before higher level teams were still super easy to beat, they just took longer.

However, I do feel there's such a crazy jump in the AI styles between modes now it's very awkward feeling. The first few Milestones, or the first 5 in your streak should probably still be on standard easy AI, then jump into the hardcore blocking it is now. It already does a ramping up of AI difficulty, but it doesn't feel like it starts low enough at the moment.

 

[moisterrific]

You seem to be alone then. Perhaps it has to do with your collection being more advanced, or you are simply better than the majority of players. The reality is, if the game launches with the current AI, I can't see many new players sticking with it for long. A buddy of mine just started the game a few days ago and was obsessed. Post-patch that obsession has become frustration and boredom. Posters on sites such as toucharcade have likewise expressed resignation that the game just isn't enjoyable anymore. If it still works for you, great, but I wouldn't count on that translating to a successful future.

I just looked up the posts on TouchArcade, there have been a total of only 3 people (you, Osterus, and this one other person) who complained about the new AI. It's inconclusive to predict the future of a game based on feedback from a few people. If we could get a poll going and get as much player feedback as possible about the new fight experience in 1.2.0, that would be great and help the devs a lot in improving the game.

I have 7 golds around level 25ish, and a bunch of silvers. I'm finding I can still progress, but whereas it used to be fast-paced, fluid excitement, now it's just a slog. Defensive play just isn't as fun as offensive play, and currently the combat overall feels clunky. The AI generally follows a pattern of blocking and countering, forcing players into dull routines of hit-and-run. Pre-patch, the game was more combo-centric, and when I did lose a match I felt like I could level up a bit, and/or change abilities and strategies to increase the chance next time. Now it often feels a lot more based on having characters strong enough to take hits and build up for specials that can one-hit kill.

Version 1.1.1 had severe balance issues where the AI was overall very docile and you could do unlimited combos. To me it often felt too easy, even when playing matches where I had a huge FS disadvantage. Now the hard level AI is more reactive and is more interesting to play against. What I tend to do is start defensively and block incoming combo chains while looking for an opportunity to counter attack. When the enemy leaves an opening such as using a taunt or at the end of a combo, that's when you should hit them back.

Considering grinding has become a lot harder for new players, the meager 600 gold for redoing story fights reduced to just over 100, how are newer players supposed to build up a collection that can compete? Will many have to patience to even bother? Heck, I loved the game pre-patch and have a solid collection and I'm not sure how much longer I'll stick with it. Newer soft-launch players are even less inclined to keep with it. If only the top end soft-launch players still enjoy playing it doesn't say much for the longevity of the game.

Again, there are no surveys or polls yet that indicate newer players are finding the AI being very problematic. AI will never be as good as a real human opponent, so there's always room for improvement. How do you think the AI should behave in high difficulty/win streak fights?

However, I do feel there's such a crazy jump in the AI styles between modes now it's very awkward feeling. The first few Milestones, or the first 5 in your streak should probably still be on standard easy AI, then jump into the hardcore blocking it is now. It already does a ramping up of AI difficulty, but it doesn't feel like it starts low enough at the moment.

I think AI difficulty should also take player level into consideration, not just fighter score and win streaks. Players who are higher levelled tend to be more experienced than new players. And the system definitely could be less punishing for them.

 

[Maelwolf]

Shrug. I don't really have a dog in this race beyond enjoying the game a lot pre-patch and wanting it to succeed. My experience with similar games, and comments from other players suggests this is a pretty major issue. Personally I think you are quite detached from how newer and lower ranked players will perceive the current gameplay. You've obviously played a fair bit and have pretty above average characters. Thus you're experience likely doesn't match what I and other players have noted.

That said, you look like you dominate this forum and the old forum with posting quantity. I've played enough beta and early launches to know how these debates go with similar forum posters so I'll back out of this one and simply leave my advice to developers to do with what they will.

 

[Osterus]

Basically, if you have a 15k team + in Prize Fight just let them attack you and then UNLOAD ALL YOUR BLOCKBUSTERS.

My team is close to 25k power level and I don't even bother attacking anymore.

It's not worth it with all the blocking and is just a waste of time. Even if you try to throw the AI at higher prize levels they will just counter it then you will be staggered and they will unleash on you.

Tip: Let enemy attack you then just unload all your special moves.

Works great if you invested all in +Health Nodes and your fights are quite tanky.

You can just unleash your 7 move or 8 move Blockbusterse.

 

[moisterrific]

Basically, if you have a 15k team + in Prize Fight just let them attack you and then UNLOAD ALL YOUR BLOCKBUSTERS.

My team is close to 25k power level and I don't even bother attacking anymore.

It's not worth it with all the blocking and is just a waste of time. Even if you try to throw the AI at higher prize levels they will just counter it then you will be staggered and they will unleash on you.

Tip: Let enemy attack you then just unload all your special moves.

Works great if you invested all in +Health Nodes and your fights are quite tanky.

You can just unleash your 7 move or 8 move Blockbusterse.

Yeah it's a good idea to never try to throw an enemy Cerebella, 99% of the time they'll break the throw and leave you staggered. But using moves that count as throws seem to be very effective, such as Diamond Drop and Merry Go-rilla (neither can be blocked)

 

[Joanie]

I'm noticing a lot of turtling myself and personally I don't like the feel of the new AI and going for throws seems nonbeneficial. Only way I could break block now is if I invested in getting that Unblockable Charge Attack skill at the very top...

Maybe I just suck, but all I'm doing now is boring and feel like there's no finese; I miss being able to juggle and combo (even fighting unflinchable characters looked fun before 1.2.0 since I had the chance to throw them and those expert bronze only matches seem literally impossible now.) - wished they tried something different to improve the AI.

Also, I'm a liitle annoyed that Prize Fights cost 4 energy; that's one too much and those yellow energy are pointless after story and dailies now.

 

[Osterus]

It seems like Unblockable Charge Attack is now a S+++ tier skill and probably the BEST skill upgrade in the game atm.

Without this upgrade all enemies will block and you stand no chance in certain fights....

I only have it on 2 characters but am rushing to complete it now...

Then I realised I have no more gold keys >_>''

And it's so hard to earn gold keys now...

 

[Cellsai]

It seems like Unblockable Charge Attack is now a S+++ tier skill and probably the BEST skill upgrade in the game atm.

I agree. That skill went from basically useless to pretty invaluable. Regretting not filling up my tree in that direction now!

 

[Osterus]

I agree. That skill went from basically useless to pretty invaluable. Regretting not filling up my tree in that direction now!

Yep.

Anyone who has this upgrade on 5+ or more characters will absolutely destroy all content no matter what.

Not sure how the devs will think about balancing this... as without it the game is all turtle and blocking...

 

[Joanie]

Does the Unblockable Charge Attack skill only work on Charge, or does it apply to some SM and BB too?

 

[moisterrific]

Unblockable charge attacks were pretty useless in 1.1.1 since opponents rarely blocked. Now it's more useful since they block a lot. But I still find myself rarely using it since I don't often see any enemy stay in blocking mode for long.

You can often bait out their block by moving far back and using a charge attack or use a long ranged attack.

Does the Unblockable Charge Attack skill only work on Charge, or does it apply to some SM and BB too?

It only works for charge attacks and doesn't apply to anything else.

 

[Shenbet]

The problem I'm having with the AI right now is that since they're always blocking and it's impossible to do what you'd normally do in this situation and hit them from the angle that they aren't blocking, say someone is blocking high and you can hit their legs instead, you can't do that here. I'd love to be able to at least throw them but the problem is that the AI will constantly break your throw and you're back to square one, if you start hitting them to do chip damage you get nothing done unless you have a character that's a higher level. I feel like it's starting to be too reliant on your fighter's level. Sure it's an RPG but it's also gotta remain a fighting game at its core. Feels a little too constricted since there's nothing you can do to counter turtles other than grinding for hours for a higher leveled character, which is now harder since Quick Play is gone and Prize Fights use up so much energy, even then, I run into the same problem of infinite blocking in Prize Fights and its starting to feel less fun because of that. It's boiling down to praying and hoping that the AI doesn't break your block