Marquee Ability Tweak Discussion

[SpanSpec]

Marquee Abilities, we all know them (hopefully). They can make some a force of nature and others slightly better than without it. Throughout the many perks and bonuses that they can provide there are the few that stick out as being a must have to an after thought. I would like to bring those points up and talk about my personally feelings on each of them while being open to seeing how you view them too. I'm going to continue into this with the assumption that your are familiar to SGM lingos and know what each MA does, if not please visit the SGM wiki as it all of them listed and is also a great resource in general.

Beowulf - Title Fight
Challenger - Mainly to support defensive Beowulf's, being Underdog and Weekend Warrior. Unfortunately neither are too special so you won't see this often.
Defending Champ - As for the rest of the Wulf Pack, this is the real deal for an easy 15% dmg boost. You'll be winning most of your fights so why not end it faster.

Verdict - I think both are fine as is. Challenger is the obvious underdog here but I say thats because of the state of UD and WW. If it were to be buff so that it would be stronger than Defending Champ since it's conditions are riskier so it fair. Maybe haste and a higher dmg boost, say 20% maxed so chip dmg would be spooky too.

Big Band - Maestro
Soloist - A hard condition to meet in PF as if Band is the last one alive it's a sticky spot for either if you are an attacker or it's your defending team. Granted it can be worked around by using this on solo nodes in Rifts but generally I wouldn't pick this
Frontman - Maxed out it's an easy 15% defense just for existing. Pushing Band to go past the 50% soft cap and making him a real tanky enemy. Going against this you would have to take care of the other 2 fighters before his MA is nullified which is easier said then done

Verdict - Both MA are geared into making Band a stronger tank and dmg sponge which isn't a bad thing inherently but nothing to really give him an edge while being aggressive. You'll find yourself winning matches without taking few to no hits (outside of chip dmg) and the MA is kind of just there. I like to think MA are to take a unit into a different , at times slightly, playstlye but this one is just a big "Meh" from me.

Cerebella - Center Stage
Upper Hand - So our first "Wow" MA this evening. Being able to delete meter by preforming throws, which is pretty much all Cerebella does, gives her great versatility being able to control the flow of the match. With the help of "Pummel Horse" the enemy is basically never able to use a Blockbuster, let alone an Unblockable.
Ring Leader - Now here's the little sibling to the titan of an SA, Upper Hand. Unfortunately this little guy is really overshadowed and for good reason. Not many times you'll find a special to be a threat outside of maybe "Merry-Go-Rilla" and the tag in disable isn't special. If you want to lock an enemy in to finish them off, sure this would be the MA for you but to give up the powerful ability to reduce meter isn't worth it in my eyes.

Verdict - Even though Upper Hand may have caught a nerf, being that she now reduces instead of drain, it is still the best MA for any Cerebella. I honestly don't know how to give Ring Leader an edge to be considered on the table. Maybe cutting the wait time out of special moves instead of just increasing the cooldown rate like HQ would make it a worthy sister MA.

Double - Entropy
Chaos - Now we have next is the first real MA that either/or is a good option. Chaos's ability to just spam debuffs is great and makes any Double a threat offensively. Most will build a crit rate Double to maximize this and dominate a match
Volatility - Another great pick since to the unlucky, this will grant a Double nothing but invincibility (totally not exaggerating). Still, this gives Double some sustain as she is generally very squishy so if you need to stall for a Xenomorph Doom or stack buffs for JawBreaker, this is it.

Verdict - You really can't go wrong with one or the other. Not to say that there isn't a preferred MA for each Double but you can find some levels of success even if you like to battle the mainstream. Not much else to say about them, great MA and support different playstyles so it passes in my books.

Eliza - Bloodlne
Blood Oath - So give up a fighter to gain up to 50% HP. Useful for if you're carrying some fodder as EXP leeches and you find yourself at low health. Even on your normal set ups, being able to heal a good chuck is pretty nifty.
Ritual Sacrifice - How about now you get 100% meter? Not that powerful outside of maybe defense where any BB3 will delete you normally (Not to mention Lady of Slaughter is a pretty bad BB3). Many of her moves can be charged rather quick so it's overboard for giving up somebody, on purpose or otherwise.

Verdict- Whew, now with the introduction is over I can get to the meat of talk about this MA. To be frank, I think it's pretty bad. Before you get a pitchfork I would like to explain myself and what I think could be better. In the end you're losing one out of 3 fighters to only slightly boost up an Eliza, which is essentially rewinding the clock with the case of Blood Oath for HP or skipping to the future for meter. Plus that many Elizas already have SAs that does that job without the blood price, for example Diva Intervention who does both MA great and Bloody Valentine as a mini version of DI. My idea is to make each MA for two different playstyles but both will benefit you greatly. Have one give Eliza a surge of power when YOU are able to defeat a fighter while the other is when one of your own dies and in turn Eliza becomes a near unkillable beast for X amount of time. This would fit the "Blood Price" motif, it just won't be just your teammate's blood and either would be easily countered just by defeating Eliza first.

Filia - Bloodletting
The First Cut - Not much to say here, its objectively the go-to MA for any Filia and can enable the cheesiest strategies to take down the tanks of PF and Rifts.
Leech - I find this to be pretty underwhelming considering Filia's low dmg output anyways. I've seen points brought up for non-bleed SA Filias can run this but lets be honest any Filia is a bleeder.

Verdict - Again this a similar case to Cerebella where one MA is vastly superior to other but here I'll argue that Leech is not even good in it's own rights. Perhaps making it heal a bit after a bleed expires would bump it up and make it something viable for a battle of nutrition considering plenty of Filia's moves bleed on chance and even on hit.

Ms.Fortune - I Can Has Buff?
Mlem - Play smart for 10 seconds, get some heals. Pretty straight forward and is preferred to be matched up with defensive Fortunes, being Meow and Forever and Just Kitten so that can continue to make your enemy pull out their hairs in anger.
Boop - I you're good at dealing dmg take this and you'll do even more dmg then before! Same premise as before but this time it's geared to the attacking cats.

Verdict - I'm okay with where both of these are at right now. It's supports different playstyles and encourages smart kitting to avoid getting hit and/or doing really long combos. Another one passes my test in flying colors.

Painwheel - Tortured Soul
Tainted Blood - Yikes, now we dip into the dark side of MA. Reflecting 100% of crit dmg can shutdown the a lot of fighters if you're not careful with who you use against a Painwheel rocking this MA. Even then, everyone is capable of doing crits (Unless a TAF is on their team, then just bully her)
Grudge - Oh Grudge, you went from being the underdog MA to a nightmare to anyone unfortunate enough to cross paths with you. You can basically tank a lot dmg and moves for free and then shred after acting like nothing just happened.

Verdict - As some of you may know from experience, Painwheel's MA are both made to make fighting against one a frustrating and "painful" time. I feel that grudge needs to be toned down as they seem to overshot when making it good. 100% armor and enrage on crit hits, which every fighter can do unless you just want to grab all day, is insane. I'm aware of the common answers, Chaos Banish, Armor Break, and Curse, both you're likely just gonna build Painwheel's 5 armor in the next combo unless they're under constant curse. Lower it's chances a small bit would be enough for me to, lets say 70-80%?

Parasoul - Hyper-Critical
Critical Think - Bonus crit rate per tear, very useful on Parasouls that has a SA that procs on it, such as No Egrets and Heavy Reign.
Critical Mass - Up to 200% bonus crit dmg? Prime's is ready with a Silent Scope to break number counters.

Verdict - Pretty happy here too, both gives a choice on how you want to build a Parasoul and it's a given since its a FAQ for many players on which is better. Hyper-Critcal gets an A.

Peacock - Toon Time
Special Feature - Good if you like to use special moves a lot in combos, or just fancy spamming Georges and Bang, Bang, Bang across the screen.
Cast Party - Funny enough I underestimated this for a long time but with Double's and Squigly's multi hit tag ins, it can be a real treat at high streaks since one opening from you can spell your doom.

Verdict - Being transparent I don't play Peacock often but I can see value in picking up either for your Peacock. I've had my chin knocked up plenty of times from her tag in and my defense broken by Inklings bombs. Another solid selection here.

Squigly -
Evil Dead - Groovy, If you set up Squigly's body into the perfect spot, you'll absolutely cripple any fighter that get hits on top of her. No meter and no buffs, that is not something I want to go through myself.
Dead Alive - Now with this one, you can pretty much become invincible (nearly) and even if you happen to stray away from the corpse, it should have eaten the clock and brought back Dead of Winter too.

Verdict - Very strong MA options, can't go wrong but be aware of both your own and the enemy's Squiglys. Who would have though she would be as helpful in death as she was in life(?), not dead.

Valentine - Combat Clinic
Trauma Center - I have to admit, TC has saved my hide more than once. With a high enough investment it can be a real hassle to deal with, especially if you hit them with a hard BB3 and fill up their meter.
ICU - Now this is the good stuff. Completely shuts down bleed and unless it's Healblock or Curse, she will just keep on healing all day if you're not careful.

Verdict - One of the strongest pairs of MA in the game that also doesn't walk a line of being broken. Once more a good selection but if i may say that TC can get into high places at the cost of being invested a lot so a bronze Val as a TC fodder is an option. ICU on the other hand is great off the bat, anymore is just cherry on top and only adds more flavor.

So that wraps up what I think about MA currently. Feel free to poke at my points and come up with your own answers to how to go about tweaking each one to balance.

 

[Inked]

great analysis of all the marquees!
i do pretty much agree with everything on here but i do think Leech for Filia can be helpful. i think it can be really effective in the right situation i.e. for Dreadlocks. when fighting her you’re already hurting yourself due to the damage reflect + heavy bleed and then for her to catch you in a combo and regain health that you suffered through to get down - i can see that as a pretty annoying match.
plus, even though every Filia is technically a bleeder, some Filias inflict bleed less often than others. BHD and Parasite Weave inflict bleed pretty often so The First Cut is more appropriate for them. however for Bad Miss Frosty or Hair Apparent i don’t think First Cut fits as they don’t inflict bleed often enough for the MA to fit their SA/playstyle, if that makes any sense

 

[infine]

Eeeh, Eliza MAs are both decent, it's just they are more defensively oriented.
Particularly the HP one, due to Eliza's already good base HP it's like fighting a bloody Last Hope. Throw it on Bloodbath, and it's a timeout central. Meter one less so since Eliza has a horrible dash that's relatively easy to intercept, so her having BB3 ready is typically less of an issue.

PW MAs would be a real nightmare if not for her pitiful HP. As it stands, Tainted Blood is pretty manageable with a non-crit based fighter. Base crit chance is 20% with full ATK tree, so you are statistically screwed only if PW has like 4 times your raw HP which is kinda rare, not to mention you can do throws and bleed. Get Primed, do launcher, juggle, sweep, napalm shower, blow stuff up, PW is near death.

Same for grudge - it doesn't help much against low hit count characters, bleed, it charges Poltergust meter like some portable nuclear reactor and whoo boy does it feed Rusty.

As for Filia's Leech I think it should be a decent choice for Windswept.

 

[SpanSpec]

great analysis of all the marquees!
i do pretty much agree with everything on here but i do think Leech for Filia can be helpful. i think it can be really effective in the right situation i.e. for Dreadlocks. when fighting her you’re already hurting yourself due to the damage reflect + heavy bleed and then for her to catch you in a combo and regain health that you suffered through to get down - i can see that as a pretty annoying match.
plus, even though every Filia is technically a bleeder, some Filias inflict bleed less often than others. BHD and Parasite Weave inflict bleed pretty often so The First Cut is more appropriate for them. however for Bad Miss Frosty or Hair Apparent i don’t think First Cut fits as they don’t inflict bleed often enough for the MA to fit their SA/playstyle, if that makes any sense

I view it as more like TFC is just too good of a benefit to have over leech, regardless of SA. Rift’s Boss Node are a good example since DL is the only Light Filia so she can melt through Bio and other Darks. I can see it’s appeal for those not geared as bleeders since it makes sense logically to a degree, but it’s just something I wouldn’t pick up personally.

Eeeh, Eliza MAs are both decent, it's just they are more defensively oriented.
Particularly the HP one, due to Eliza's already good base HP it's like fighting a bloody Last Hope. Throw it on Bloodbath, and it's a timeout central. Meter one less so since Eliza has a horrible dash that's relatively easy to intercept, so her having BB3 ready is typically less of an issue.

PW MAs would be a real nightmare if not for her pitiful HP. As it stands, Tainted Blood is pretty manageable with a non-crit based fighter. Base crit chance is 20% with full ATK tree, so you are statistically screwed only if PW has like 4 times your raw HP which is kinda rare, not to mention you can do throws and bleed. Get Primed, do launcher, juggle, sweep, napalm shower, blow stuff up, PW is near death.

Same for grudge - it doesn't help much against low hit count characters, bleed, it charges Poltergust meter like some portable nuclear reactor and whoo boy does it feed Rusty.

As for Filia's Leech I think it should be a decent choice for Windswept.

On the issue with Eliza MA I find it to be lackluster in both departments since, yes could heal fully on defense, but you’ll need to forget about Eliza for half the match to enable that really. It more of a nice thing to unlock rather than a good booster that really improves her. Grudge for as many ways to go about dealing with is fine, it’s just I would like to make it more manageable when those options are limited.

 

[fanghoul]

I'm okay with Blood Oath as a defensive MA for Eliza. It seems to do it's job, which is to annoy the heck out of me when I forget it's there. I can agree though that it'd be more appealing if Ritual Sacrifice offered a boost when on offense instead of defense though, as having one for defense and one for offense is already a common theme for MAs.

I think for a lot of people the appeal of MAs is that they visibly make you feel more powerful, which is hard to see with both of Eliza's. Having Ritual Sacrifice activate when an opponent is defeated seems like a good option for fixing that.

 

[theLoneskull]

Eliza's MA are more defensively oriented, but they are killer in certain situations. Throwing the Blood Oath MA on someone like Bloodbath is going to basically time you out. Bloodbath already has good health, so this only further strengthens her self-heal capabilities. The meter one's meh because on defense, Eliza's charge can be easily intercepted and her BB3 generally tends to not be too much of an issue. On offense, it forces you to lose a teammates. Which works fine if you have level 1 silvers or golds as teammates and are confident in your ability to go solo mode. But otherwise its more of a safety net for if you mess up.

Leech isn't half bad on Windswept or Dread Locks. DL gets more time to be annoying with the recoil damage while Windswept can deal enough damage for the regen to be meaningful (particularly while enraged). Though I do agree it needs a buff. Maybe make it 30% of the damage dealt instead of 15%

 

[Tom Kulczewski]

Great analysis, but personally I think Peacock's MAs are a little underwhelming when compared to the rest. Cast Party just became a little bit better recently thanks to Rift Battles, but still; both MAs seem niche to me. I mean, SM cooldown refresh's good and all, but Peacock's bread and butter's the Impending + Argus combo, which it doesn't help in the slightest.

 

[Ryouhi]

Great analysis, but personally I think Peacock's MAs are a little underwhelming when compared to the rest. Cast Party just became a little bit better recently thanks to Rift Battles, but still; both MAs seem niche to me. I mean, SM cooldown refresh's good and all, but Peacock's bread and butter's the Impending + Argus combo, which it doesn't help in the slightest.

i agree
Cast Party is a none issue most of the time outside of the rift boss node and such, where tag-ins actually start to hurt.
personally i'd argue it is *too* strong in that case even, as a Unblockable Squigly tag-in (which spawns directly under you) will hit you for 75% of your health. Losing that much health to an unblockable attack is furstrating.

Problem is, outside of Rifts or very high streak PFs is that it's useless.

SM refresh is okay. It can be fun to keep getting resets on your bang bang bang and spam it, but the MA is hindered by being locked out of using them multiple times in a combo. So sometimes you hit an enemy with say Boxcar and get a refresh, but you'll be locked out of using it again for a moment.

So i'd say Cast Party is much too niche, while SM refresh is just okay.

 

[SpanSpec]

Great analysis, but personally I think Peacock's MAs are a little underwhelming when compared to the rest. Cast Party just became a little bit better recently thanks to Rift Battles, but still; both MAs seem niche to me. I mean, SM cooldown refresh's good and all, but Peacock's bread and butter's the Impending + Argus combo, which it doesn't help in the slightest.

i agree
Cast Party is a none issue most of the time outside of the rift boss node and such, where tag-ins actually start to hurt.
personally i'd argue it is *too* strong in that case even, as a Unblockable Squigly tag-in (which spawns directly under you) will hit you for 75% of your health. Losing that much health to an unblockable attack is furstrating.

Problem is, outside of Rifts or very high streak PFs is that it's useless.

SM refresh is okay. It can be fun to keep getting resets on your bang bang bang and spam it, but the MA is hindered by being locked out of using them multiple times in a combo. So sometimes you hit an enemy with say Boxcar and get a refresh, but you'll be locked out of using it again for a moment.

So i'd say Cast Party is much too niche, while SM refresh is just okay.

I'm not the best person to know what up with Peacock since I don't use her often but I can support the idea that her MA are a bit underwhelming admittedly. Maybe meter gain on special use for Special Feature and Toon Time i find more tricky since it's results vary depending on which level of the game you are at. A full rework might be in order but if you can think of something to make it better I"m open to hear it.

 

[Beldr447]

Grudge can be countered easily by any Squigly with drag n drop, since every hit inflicts armor break.

 

[cappatacus]

Grudge for as many ways to go about dealing with is fine, it’s just I would like to make it more manageable when those options are limited.

When are those options limited? A short compilation of solutions mentioned:
Curse
Armour Break (DragNDrop, Egret Moto, Nekhbet Breaker, somebody's Burst, Headstrong, Pea Shooter, am I missing someone?)
Ultraviolent (ignore defense)
Bleed (BHD, Primed, Bloodbath, Bio, Lovecrafted, Furry Fury, Most Filias Tbh, Rusty, Buzzkill, Bloodrive, etc)
Buff Removal (The moves you listed, Silent Kill, Doublicious, Rusty (again))
Low hit counts: Parasoul, Beowulf, Cerebella

I don't want to make it seem like I'm attacking you - I've just thought Grudge was overrated on defense since day one and I'm very passionate about that. Grudge is infinitely easier to maneuver around than TB, since as you noted, every character has crit rate. Also, the HP of the opponent doesn't matter - I've done overkill damage with the first hit from my Primed and got both fighters one-shotted. Shotted? Sure.

Also, I feel that Cast Party is good, but I've seen it mentioned before that it's more dangerous since it's a bit of a wildcard that can leave you punished by the opponent.

I have mixed feelings about Upper Hand. Idk, I feel like I see it less actively than other MAs like ICU so it's not necessarily bad, just personally less fun.