Characters Raining Champ - [Discussion]

[SvenZ]

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This topic is going to be about Power Creep. Now, I know we shouldn't compare apples to oranges, however when one of these fruits is a higher tier than the other, a discussion must arise.

Raining Champ is an interesting variant. I personally think she's rather easy to deal with, despite the 2 permanent Armor stacks on her (not counting Rifts, as I don't play Rift). Even so, having 40% damage reduction at all times is great to have, and the round start Unflinching can prove to be disruptive. I think it's also quite valuable on offense, as you can tank the first hit (you won't take much damage), and start off your offense. So in that regard, her SA1 is pretty good, and doesn't need a change.

The issue comes with her SA2. On paper, it's a pretty good effect. Final Stand and haste on a 10 second downtime. Well, here are the problems:

SA1's Unflinching is wasted if she's NOT the point defender. Second, Final Stand is good and all, but given the intervals it's not too hard to deal with. Lastly, Haste is good in the sense of giving access to BB3 sooner to your defenders, but a generally tanky defender already has quick access to BB Meter.

Now why is Amped and Ready on the screen? Power Creep. He may not provide Final Stand, but he also offers Haste, and in addition to that Regen. But not at a 10 second downtime, but instead at a 5 second one. Not only that, but he has a condition that allows him to extend their duration, making for cases where the downtime is 0 seconds.

For both offense and defense purposes, I feel like his SA1 is better than Raining Champ's SA2. Again, Final Stand is good, but every single Val offers a better version of it. And even though 10 seconds is not that long, it can prove detrimental. Especially since you can time a Curse application before the Final Stand triggers.

I'm not suggesting any changes to her (yes). But I wanted to hear other people's opinion on her first. If you have a suggestion in mind, feel free to share it.

 

[Aoskull]

I would like to comment here since Champ is my most favorite variant!

- First of all, she's no longer a defender. Like you said, it is easy to counter her by bleed, miasma, outtake etc, and even she’s on the bench, final stand is easy to handle since the appearance of quietus. Due to these, it is not very effective especially in Diamond tier even when deployed on defense.

- I personally think she’s an all-round attacker. Perma armors makes her durable, and thank to Twister or BB3’s healing effect, higher durability can be more strengthened. The first push is perfect with unflinching. Also she’s Umbrella, it's easy to chain combos and the slime makes it a buff handler killer. I like to combine with the Neutral Minette Shredder to emphasize her almighty.

- For sig2, I personally think as a “bonus”. She is a fighter that shines when controlled by yourself, and is not often used for support purposes. Rider usually leaves the rest to his teammates after inflicting curse on the opponent, so he’s purely a fighter for support purposes. I don't think it's wise to compare them here.

- She’s strong in any build since she doesn’t rely on hunger, but my main is here:

(No Lv15 moves due to lack of coins)

 

[Kheul]

Most of the time Hybrids end up being too niche, Raining Champ is a prime example.

So Raining Champ supposed to make the opponent feel under pressure by making them focus her first (she is supposed to give us a hard time with 2 ARMORS) or she would provide "constant" safety net for her teammates... Yeah that just doesn't work with those numbers. This is why people are leaning towards using her as an offensive unit. I myself just use a unit with a burst equipped if I definitely need to get the turn right off the bat.

As for the comparison, you are comparing [Final Stand + Haste] to [Regen + Haste]. Even though they are equally easily dispellable, Final Stand has much more raw value than Regen and it is only natural that a Pure Support unit like Rythm Rider has better supportive qualities than an Hybrid unit like Raining Champ.

 

[SvenZ]

Thank you both for your feedback! Even though Final Stand does indeed have more value, it's most valuable when the fighter is at immediate danger. As such, it can trigger at inconvenient times where the effect is wasted. Regen is definitely a weaker by comparison buff, but it provides immediate benefit. Rythm is also a good support both on offense and defense, while Raining Champ is a mixed bag. She has a niche with Raw Nerv, and it can be argued that it's better than Val, since you don't have to put yourself in danger, but still. On defense and as utility, her Final Stand is too unreliable right now.

I agree with Aoskull's comment that SA1 is the star of the show and SA2 feels like a bonus. SA1 makes her annoying to deal with for new players and also makes her pretty good on offense, as the immediate Unflinching allows you to steam roll the opponent.

SA2 is in need of adjustments. However, should it be offense, defense or utility is something I'm personally not sure right now

 

[Aoskull]

Thank you both for your feedback! Even though Final Stand does indeed have more value, it's most valuable when the fighter is at immediate danger. As such, it can trigger at inconvenient times where the effect is wasted. Regen is definitely a weaker by comparison buff, but it provides immediate benefit. Rythm is also a good support both on offense and defense, while Raining Champ is a mixed bag. She has a niche with Raw Nerv, and it can be argued that it's better than Val, since you don't have to put yourself in danger, but still. On defense and as utility, her Final Stand is too unreliable right now.

I agree with Aoskull's comment that SA1 is the star of the show and SA2 feels like a bonus. SA1 makes her annoying to deal with for new players and also makes her pretty good on offense, as the immediate Unflinching allows you to steam roll the opponent.

SA2 is in need of adjustments. However, should it be offense, defense or utility is something I'm personally not sure right now

- Agree that final stand may be activated at inconvenient times. I've been helped, and also fooled by it a number of times…

- It’s true that there is room for adjustment in her sig2, but since sig1 is already powerful, it should be kept to a minimum to prevent her from becoming OP. Here’s my suggestion:

Sig2: When Umbrella is alive, teammates gain FINAL STAND and HASTE for 10 seconds every 20 seconds. While her health is above 50%, additionally heal all teammates by 5%.

- This adjustment will allow her teammates to heal all teammates in addition to Final Stand and Haste, her abilities will no longer be wasted!

- But this ability can only be activated if her HP is above 50%, allowing opponent to make a room to counter it. To counter this, opponent needs to pull her out with outtake, and in combat, she can buy some time thank to 2 armors. If it's difficult, inverse polarity or heal block are also effective, but they won't prevent benched opponent’s healing.

- Of course, it’s also effective in terms of offense. She has recovery moves, so it shouldn't be too difficult to activate!

 

[SvenZ]

- Agree that final stand may be activated at inconvenient times. I've been helped, and also fooled by it a number of times…

- It’s true that there is room for adjustment in her sig2, but since sig1 is already powerful, it should be kept to a minimum to prevent her from becoming OP. Here’s my suggestion:

Sig2: When Umbrella is alive, teammates gain FINAL STAND and HASTE for 10 seconds every 20 seconds. While her health is above 50%, additionally heal all teammates by 5%.

- This adjustment will allow her teammates to heal all teammates in addition to Final Stand and Haste, her abilities will no longer be wasted!

- But this ability can only be activated if her HP is above 50%, allowing opponent to make a room to counter it. To counter this, opponent needs to pull her out with outtake, and in combat, she can buy some time thank to 2 armors. If it's difficult, inverse polarity or heal block are also effective, but they won't prevent benched opponent’s healing.

- Of course, it’s also effective in terms of offense. She has recovery moves, so it shouldn't be too difficult to activate!

Doesn't this introduce the same issue for Final Stand that it has now? You don't really need it while above 50%, but it's something you definitely want while you're low.

What do you guys think of the following. Instead of her SA2 granting HASTE, it granted UNFLINCHING instead?

Would create more windows of opportunity where the Last Stand becomes viable on defense, and it would certainly help out offense a lot.

Cons:
- No more synergy with Martial Outlaw
- The meter gain can be useful on both offense and defense

Pros:
- There is a decent amount of Haste sources in the game
- Would greatly benefit defense vs opponent that don't have Deadeye or Curse
- Would greatly benefit offense, allowing for very aggressive play
- Synergy with Grim Fan. So long as she's the active fighter and Raining Champ is alive, you get a free revive every 10 seconds.


Or alternatively keep the Haste, but also add the Unflinching, so she provides 3 buffs. Might be too much tho

 

[Kheul]

I think the main problem is how the SA2 grants the specified buffs. The buffs themselves are good but the way they are provided is problematic. Instead of a really incompatible 20 sec timer, how about this:

SA2:
Grants HASTE to her teammates if none of their BLOCKBUSTERS are ready. Grants FINAL STAND to her teammates for 5/7/10 seconds when they suffer a HIT that would be fatal while having a TIER 3 BLOCKBUSTER ready (Once per ally).

First part of her SA2 is mostly for offensive support and second part works two-way, pretty much like a portable Last Words (Catalyst).

 

[SvenZ]

I think the main problem is how the SA2 grants the specified buffs. The buffs themselves are good but the way they are provided is problematic. Instead of a really incompatible 20 sec timer, how about this:

SA2:
Grants HASTE to her teammates if none of their BLOCKBUSTERS are ready. Grants FINAL STAND to her teammates for 5/7/10 seconds when they suffer a HIT that would be fatal while having a TIER 3 BLOCKBUSTER ready (Once per ally).

First part of her SA2 is mostly for offensive support and second part works two-way, pretty much like a portable Last Words (Catalyst).

If it's once per ally, then having it be any Blockbuster would be better imo. Restricting it to BB3 is too much of a handicap

Edit: I think there's another issue here. The HASTE is only active when no Blockbusters are ready. However, even with a little bit of Meter gain, you can charge up BB1s quite fast. So the effect is going to be barely active, and won't really contribute to higher tier Blockbusters, unless they're the only ones equipped.

I have a crazy idea. What do you guys think of the following:

​	OLD​	NEW​
Signature Ability 1	Umbrella starts the match with UNFLINCHING for 5/7/10 seconds and 2 stacks of permanent ARMOR. ARMOR is removed if Umbrella has no living teammates.	On match start and on tagging in, gain UNFLINCHING for 5/7/10 seconds. Umbrella also has 2 stacks of permanent ARMOR, which is removed if Umbrella has no living teammates.
Signature Ability 2​	While Umbrella is alive, teammates gain HASTE and FINAL STAND for 10 seconds every 30/25/20 seconds.​	Once per Ally, when they would take fatal damage, immediately TAG IN Umbrella. The TAGGED OUT ally recovers 5/10/15% HEALTH immediately

Now how will SA2 actually work? In my mind, if the ally is in a combo, it immediately drops and Umby tags in. If that causes too many bugs, or weird interactions with Guest Stars, then the ally could possibly have permanent LAST STAND until the combo ends, and on wake up they tag out.

 

[Aoskull]

If it's once per ally, then having it be any Blockbuster would be better imo. Restricting it to BB3 is too much of a handicap

Edit: I think there's another issue here. The HASTE is only active when no Blockbusters are ready. However, even with a little bit of Meter gain, you can charge up BB1s quite fast. So the effect is going to be barely active, and won't really contribute to higher tier Blockbusters, unless they're the only ones equipped.

I have a crazy idea. What do you guys think of the following:

​	OLD​	NEW​
Signature Ability 1	Umbrella starts the match with UNFLINCHING for 5/7/10 seconds and 2 stacks of permanent ARMOR. ARMOR is removed if Umbrella has no living teammates.	On match start and on tagging in, gain UNFLINCHING for 5/7/10 seconds. Umbrella also has 2 stacks of permanent ARMOR, which is removed if Umbrella has no living teammates.
Signature Ability 2​	While Umbrella is alive, teammates gain HASTE and FINAL STAND for 10 seconds every 30/25/20 seconds.​	Once per Ally, when they would take fatal damage, immediately TAG IN Umbrella. The TAGGED OUT ally recovers 5/10/15% HEALTH immediately

Now how will SA2 actually work? In my mind, if the ally is in a combo, it immediately drops and Umby tags in. If that causes too many bugs, or weird interactions with Guest Stars, then the ally could possibly have permanent LAST STAND until the combo ends, and on wake up they tag out.

- I'm worried that forced tag out will completely destroy our strategy (Tag in attack was block or missed and leading opponent to a counterattack, tag out due to the damage from the thorns and tag-in attack will also cause thorn damage to her etc.)

- Because I'm pretty used to the original ability, I don't want to see such a big change to her. It would be nice to add something to the original one. What's in my head is...

• Heal benched teammates
• 5 precisions
• Guest Star meter increase
• Evasion
• Swap your debuff and opponent buff

 

[Kheul]

If it's once per ally, then having it be any Blockbuster would be better imo. Restricting it to BB3 is too much of a handicap

It is a true safety net unlike Valentine's as Val doesn't save you from one-shots thought this would be the better way to balance it. For offense it might be considerably harder to utilize but most of the time Defenders will have their BB3s ready before taking fatal hits.

Edit: I think there's another issue here. The HASTE is only active when no Blockbusters are ready. However, even with a little bit of Meter gain, you can charge up BB1s quite fast. So the effect is going to be barely active, and won't really contribute to higher tier Blockbusters, unless they're the only ones equipped.

I mean yeah that is the point, she can grant timeless HASTE but you need to work around it. It is why that part is mostly for offense as you are constantly cycling your BLOCKBUSTERS. Maybe you want to play with just a BB3, it can take shape to some gameplay styles while not always being the top pick for purely support.

I have a crazy idea. What do you guys think of the following:

​	OLD​	NEW​
Signature Ability 1	Umbrella starts the match with UNFLINCHING for 5/7/10 seconds and 2 stacks of permanent ARMOR. ARMOR is removed if Umbrella has no living teammates.	On match start and on tagging in, gain UNFLINCHING for 5/7/10 seconds. Umbrella also has 2 stacks of permanent ARMOR, which is removed if Umbrella has no living teammates.
Signature Ability 2​	While Umbrella is alive, teammates gain HASTE and FINAL STAND for 10 seconds every 30/25/20 seconds.​	Once per Ally, when they would take fatal damage, immediately TAG IN Umbrella. The TAGGED OUT ally recovers 5/10/15% HEALTH immediately

I thought about making the UNLINCHING take effect on tagging in as well, but thought it would be a bit too much as Umbrella already has a really safe tag in. That said, I see what you did here it is a really cool concept for her to work like a literal safety net with frequent UNFLINCHING on top of it. She has a really good flow overall.

However, unconditional true safety net (especially for offensive purposes) sounds too strong for my own taste. You can't even use QUIETUS or CURSE against this, she just saves them. HASTE is gone as well, I think this idea would work better on a new variant dedicated to this gimmick, it is somewhat fitting to Raining Champ as well, but the changes feel too drastic for me for an unit that can be fixed with just a few changes.