Updating Double's character abillity

[UmComfy39]

I've noticed some discussion centering around Double's character abillity, specifically with how the random nature of transmuting between ELEMENTS can make things time consuming when aiming for a particular ELEMENT. To tackle this - and in light of the recent Painwheel and Peacock abillity updates - I've decided to do my own take on how an update for Double's character abillity would look like, addressing her issues while adding a few little quirks to make things interesting =>

This includes... a new abillity icon!!!​

The first thing of note is the main icon, as it'll need to be held while blocking in order for Double to transmute between ELEMENTS. This is to help players maintain a specific ELEMENT, as they can avoid holding the icon while blocking if they wish to prevent any transmuting.

Another thing to mention is that transmuting between ELEMENTS goes in a set order rather being randomised, making transmuting to a spesific ELEMENT more reliable.

The last thing would be the mini-icon, which reverts Double back to her original ELEMENT (variant dependant). This can be used regardless if Double is transmuting or not, potentially allowing for an easy escape from a ELEMENTAL DISADVANTAGE.

These changes overall help to make Double's character abillity more reliable when changing between and aiming for specific ELEMENTS, along with generally helping things feel more refined.

Adding some more complexity...​

To expand on this abillity, I've come up with an alternative function for the mini-icon which incorporates a mechanic that allows Double to change between a state of HARMONY or DISCORD, both of which effect how she transmutes between ELEMENTS (see below).

State of HARMONY incorporates the above ELEMENTAL order, making it the more reliable state for both attaining and maintaining a certain ELEMENT. State of DISCORD incorporates faster transmuting along with the random nature of her current character abillity, making for a potentially faster yet risky approach to gaining a spesific ELEMENT. Could also pair well with variants that need to change between ELEMENTS in quick succestion, such as Jaw Breaker or Rainbow Blight.

While I do like this idea, in terms of both complexity and game balance I worry this might be abit much. If you've got the time, I'd appreciate if you let me know which function for the mini-icon would be better through the poll, as I'm quite unsure.

Bonus: what the abillity icon could look like in-game (definitely need to re-space and re-size the mini-icon, too small and too close to the moves)
​

That's basically all of what I've come up with, so thank you reading, and i hope I did a good job with this concept, bye!

 

[ZeoW]

Cool idea! One downside is how to explain this in-game through the Character Ability (it's already pretty long)? I suppose we can get rid of the bonus elemental damage/disadvantage that's currently there (and mostly forgotten).

And since these two ideas are clearly a buff, something needs to get nerfed to balance it out. Offensively speaking, Double's naturally high ATK stat and CHAOS are very powerful tools. Chaos is made balanced through the need to invest in Crit Rate and the RNG aspect of her transmutation.

Personally, I like that RNG is part of her identity and weakness. Perhaps the RNG can be tweaked a bit to make it slightly more consistent. For example, Double will have to go through all 5 elements before transmuting to its base element. It's still RNG but a bit more contained.

Or she could just use some new tools (SM/BB) that can help with giving her time to transmute, IMMOBILIZE being the most obvious debuff for this.

 

[Brealis]

Just delete transformations from block, and add new button for it. Please.
Always lost element when hold block.

 

[evilgordo]

to prevent any transmuting

This is a problem every Double rework proposed tries to 'fix' but does not need fixing.

new tools (SM/BB) that can help with giving her time to transmute, IMMOBILIZE being the most obvious debuff for this

This I could get behind. The 'issue' with Double's RNG Transmute is getting the time AND distance to at least get a couple of 'rolls' of the elements. A good example is getting that Immobilize artifact in PR, that does some work when Double is on your team.

 

[UmComfy39]

Cool idea! One downside is how to explain this in-game through the Character Ability (it's already pretty long)? I suppose we can get rid of the bonus elemental damage/disadvantage that's currently there (and mostly forgotten).

Thanks! And yeah in hindsight I'm not sure how they'd fit all that in the ability description. I initially figured it could be trimmed down while leaving some of the information out, but that would probably leave a sour taste in people's mouths now that I think about it.

And since these two ideas are clearly a buff, something needs to get nerfed to balance it out. Offensively speaking, Double's naturally high ATK stat and CHAOS are very powerful tools. Chaos is made balanced through the need to invest in Crit Rate and the RNG aspect of her transmutation.

Honestly something I was struggling with, as i wasn't quite sure if this stuff was balanced or needed tweaks in some areas. Figured it be better to hear from the comments and see if anyone could point out any flaws, since I didn't want to add any nerfs that people might not have liked.

Personally, I like that RNG is part of her identity and weakness. Perhaps the RNG can be tweaked a bit to make it slightly more consistent. For example, Double will have to go through all 5 elements before transmuting to its base element. It's still RNG but a bit more contained.

That sounds like a genuinely better option actually, as it adds consistency while still maintaining the random nature of the original ability. I'd even say its preferable over the 'state' mechanic I came up with, as it achieves the same result without adding a whole other section to her abillity description.

This is a problem every Double rework proposed tries to 'fix' but does not need fixing.

Hmm, I had a hunch that this aspect might've been unnecessary, so it's good to know outright. May rework the function for the big icon whenever I go back to this, or just cut it entirely depending on whether or not it has much use.

The 'issue' with Double's RNG Transmute is getting the time AND distance to at least get a couple of 'rolls' of the elements. A good example is getting that Immobilize artifact in PR, that does some work when Double is on your team.

I didn't think about that, but now that you mention it, that's like the biggest contributor to the issue. Sort of embarrassed that I missed that "- _-

Or she could just use some new tools (SM/BB) that can help with giving her time to transmute, IMMOBILIZE being the most obvious debuff for this.

Oh i can agree with Evilgordo on this, as tackling this issue through BB/SM would be a better alternative compared to adding the additional baggage to her character abillity, whie also making her kit abit more interesting.


Overall I feel that I definitely went too overboard with the idea, along with overlooking a few key points surrounding the issues of her character abillity. These responses were super helpful for giving an idea on what does and doesn't work with a potential rework though, so thanks guys!

 

[UmComfy39]

Have a rough idea for another abillity icon, which maintains the ELEMENT preview and faster transmutation rate from before, however comes with the drawback of potentially setting Double's ELEMENTAL bonuses on cooldown.

​

Abillity: Transmutation​

After BLOCKING without being hit for 1 second, Double will switch to a new random element (except NEUTRAL). While the bar in the ability icon is full, Double gains a 10% increase and decrease to her ELEMENTAL ADVANTAGE and DISADVANTAGE respectively, and transmutes quicker while holding the center of the icon (sets both effects on cooldown after blocking).​

This will likely incorporate Zeow's idea for Double's ELEMENTAL order rather than the set one from before, for reasons I've detailed in an above response.
The faster transmutation rate is mainly an attempt to provide more consistent transmutes, however the effect can be made potentially worthless by the opponent getting in close, so I may change the effect or make other additions later on to help deal with that aspect.

Bonus(?): Abillity icon while on cooldown

 

[evilgordo]

I appreciate your commitment on trying to 'fix' Double's character ability.

Double's character ability is purposefully designed to be a 'double edged sword' (pun intended).
High risk = High rewards.

To make Double's transmutation 'more reliable' and/or 'more frequent' goes against their 'chaotic' character/nature.

At this point, any changes to this ability is a delicate balance.

If transmutes are more frequent (faster) then you really don't need influence elemental 'order', but that does buff variants that care about just transmuting (and any with unlocked Prestige).

And if you 'contain/limit' the elemental 'order' then you really don't need to change the frequency of transmutations, but that will impact variants that care about which element they hit.

These fixes are trying to minimize the high risk while still getting the high rewards.

Look, I'm not trying to say 'git gud' with Double, but there's a reason Double is not one the 'starters' when you first play SGM...Double's character ability comes with a learning curve...but I think having the transmute trigger tied to blocking and not being hit is very intuitive to activate , but just difficult enough not make it exploitable. It does force a rather risky play style if you want to stay at Elemental Advantage since you can't be blocking from across the screen waiting for the opponent to come to you. Conversely, you will be retreating often in order to 'roll' your element to get a perk, which means not keeping the pressure on your opponent, which is risky depending on the opponent.
Putting the transmute trigger on an icon totally removes this risk factor...

Yes, I get it, it is frustrating to whiff when transmuting, but it is so rewarding when you get it on the first 'roll'...

 

[UmComfy39]

I appreciate your commitment on trying to 'fix' Double's character ability.

Double's character ability is purposefully designed to be a 'double edged sword' (pun intended).
High risk = High rewards.

To make Double's transmutation 'more reliable' and/or 'more frequent' goes against their 'chaotic' character/nature.

At this point, any changes to this ability is a delicate balance.

If transmutes are more frequent (faster) then you really don't need influence elemental 'order', but that does buff variants that care about just transmuting (and any with unlocked Prestige).

And if you 'contain/limit' the elemental 'order' then you really don't need to change the frequency of transmutations, but that will impact variants that care about which element they hit.

These fixes are trying to minimize the high risk while still getting the high rewards.

Look, I'm not trying to say 'git gud' with Double, but there's a reason Double is not one the 'starters' when you first play SGM...Double's character ability comes with a learning curve...but I think having the transmute trigger tied to blocking and not being hit is very intuitive to activate , but just difficult enough not make it exploitable. It does force a rather risky play style if you want to stay at Elemental Advantage since you can't be blocking from across the screen waiting for the opponent to come to you. Conversely, you will be retreating often in order to 'roll' your element to get a perk, which means not keeping the pressure on your opponent, which is risky depending on the opponent.
Putting the transmute trigger on an icon totally removes this risk factor...

Yes, I get it, it is frustrating to whiff when transmuting, but it is so rewarding when you get it on the first 'roll'...

That is one incredible argument right there. I've mainly only experienced/heard about the frustrations people have had with this abillity, while neglecting to understand how these frustrations actively play into the reward aspect of the abillity rather than just being a detriment. Very great insight overall, though now I suppose I'll need to completely rethink the idea if I ever get back to it, as I'm not even sure if her character abillity needs any retweaks at this point (I'm starting the see appeal of adding something like IMMOBILIZE to her kit even more so now, as it helps levitate the frustration without effecting her playstyle too much).

 

[Snowbell]

The BEST thing about this - and I see quite a few good, non-game-breaking things in it (I was already going to suggest an option for a quicker transmute, which you were lock-stock&two-smokin'-barrels ahead of me on with the Discord mechanic) - is that it would FINALLY, F I N A L L Y allow Double to block while maintaining her current element if the player so chooses. One of the primary reasons I don't like using Double is that if I spend time getting to the advantageous element matchup, suddenly I have to be really careful with how much I block or else I lose it, screwing up my chance of benefiting from her Chaos Marquee...

now if the discord/harmony goes too far, i still think having the button be how double transmutes elements (she could even automatically block when she button is pressed), and the longer the button is pressed down the faster the elements should cycle through (with a speed cap, of course, but a very low one so she can switch very quickly if the player commits to a long block). I don't really mind the random nature of the transmutations but there being a tradeoff for it being optionally predictable (maybe a lowered blocking effectiveness, or a debuff of some type like armor break and cripple stacking once each per predicted transmute, or even a random 3-5 second BUFF (other than invincibility, immunity, heavy regen or unflinching - say, ones that can stack only maybe?) applied to opponents on each transmute...)

I don't LOVE the idea of a "auto turn double back to her original element" button" because it seems waaaaay too powerful.

Instead (this IS unrelated to the topic at hand but NEEDS to be addressed, Double's Flesh Step absoLUTELY needs to get the upgrade to put it on par with Dahlia's Tea Slip where it removes all active debuffs. Only Dahlia having the ability is unfair and Double, being a shapeshifter, is the character that it makes the most sense to add to. If not to Flesh Step (best option) it could be put into her prestige ability, like an effect that removes debuffs on a regular interval with frequency increased by amount of prestige.

 

[Tsukiakari]

I see 2 side of this Double problems
- The original: The transmuting is too RNG, in higher streak, opponents attack relentlessly, making it nigh impossible to transmuting to the right elements. I rarely use her in high streak, unless the opponent already in the right element (oftenly dark)
- The "fix": Both quick transmuting or transmuting in order make her way too powerful with how chaos work, not to mention the variants that benefit from transmuting quicker and in order like Jaw Breaker, Heart of Darkness, Rainbow Bright. Hell, Xenomorph could be top tier if she can inflict Doom more reliable.

Honestly saying, this problem need to be "fix" somehow, but I don't really know how to change her ability without her being too powerful, maybe let her transmuting even when she got hit while blocking?