Fights BBs too much invincibility?

[BambooEarpick]

Hey all,

So I've been playing a bit and I feel like some BBs have too many invincibility frames. Of course, this could be entirely intended but it doesn't feel like it's within the spirit of the game.

Sometimes the AI will just pull out a raw BB and there's no way to punish it or the punish window is VERY short. The best examples I can think of right now are Filia's Gregor Sampson and Big Band's Super-Sonic Jazz. They charge attack happens and after the last hit the characters are invincible and if the AI chooses to block it seems like they're able to. The transition from BB frames into neutral frames takes a long time and when you try to punish attacks will whiff.

This doesn't seem to be the case with every BB which makes the cases where this is true glaringly bad.

Lastly, I'd like to say that even though this post sounds a bit negative I am enjoying this game and am interested in balance changes to make the game better. I appreciate the devs for their communication (honestly, some games have NO communication and it feelsbadman.jpg) and this is just a suggestion / opinion.

Keep on being rad.

 

[Osterus]

It is super frustrating and a cheap way to make fights "harder".

The turtle problem was 1 thing. The Invinicibility thing is another. It's hugely ANTI FUN but I can see why the devs love this because they think the game is too easy but it accomplishes nothing other than dragging a fight out 10 times longer than it should be.

 

[Poringsmasher]

I noticed this pretty early on also that BBs are entirely too safe. I wouldn't say it's a matter of them wanting it to be harder because the player can exploit it as well.

There's also a large amount of unblockable BBs and once they're available it's just a spam fest. Though this does seem like it's intended it does feel like they do too much damage when the damage is guaranteed.

 

[Osterus]

I noticed this pretty early on also that BBs are entirely too safe. I wouldn't say it's a matter of them wanting it to be harder because the player can exploit it as well.

There's also a large amount of unblockable BBs and once they're available it's just a spam fest. Though this does seem like it's intended it does feel like they do too much damage when the damage is guaranteed.

the enemies also have this so it's not like it's 1 sided.

i believe the issue here is invincibility - a super annoying feature that should not be in such a fast paced game.

 

[Poringsmasher]

the enemies also have this so it's not like it's 1 sided.

i believe the issue here is invincibility - a super annoying feature that should not be in such a fast paced game.

Your reply doesn't really make sense in regards to my comment as that was basically what I said on both fronts. The only thing I said in addition is that unblockable BBs should do less damage as they're guaranteed easy damage.

 

[BambooEarpick]

Well met.

I'd like to redefine the problems I find with BB invincibility.

1. BB invincibility lasts long enough that during 'recovery' frames you are unable to punish a blocked BB. This does not apply to all BBs but many of them.

2. The case may be that whiffed BBs ARE punishable but the window of opportunity is very small. If this is the case then the AI would be able to use frame data to know exactly when to hit you while players are left guessing if it's safe to attack or not.

If you attempt to punish a whiffed BB and your combo string gets blocked then YOU are punished and that does not feel good. This allows the AI to put on extra pressure on higher difficulties making it difficult for the player to respond.

It makes me feel like I am being prosecuted to the full extent of The Jam.

(Good game and good work so far, please keep it up! <3)

 

[Poringsmasher]

+1 like for Big Band quote.

As of this new update the advanced AI is even more on top of this as well, had a Filia use a Gregor Samson which I blocked, started attacking back which she was then able to block, punish, and in one long string took out my character. This problem isn't in the main game so it's weird that BBs are so safe in this version.

 

[ThanatosDK]

Silent Scope from Parasoul is also a move that is very safe to use. Same instance as above, invincibility frames lasting entire recovery frames.

 

[Osterus]

Oh this thread does not make any sense.

Because you too also have access to BB's which also make YOU invincible.

This is a fast paced game, and it's kill or be killed.

I like the game as it is and feel the BB invincibility on some moves is perfectly fine. Both you and the opponent has access to these BB's.

I thought this thread was referring to another matter on my posts above - that there is an INVINCIBILITY buff on characters that makes them invincible and slows down the pace of the game, which is what I object to.

I thoroughly am enjoying the BB invincibility that the OP has mentioned because I feel it is fair between characters and opponents, but not invincibility buff (e.g. on Big Band Prize Events, on Cerebella sometimes, on Big Band himself for his buff) that slows gameplay.

 

[ThanatosDK]

Oh this thread does not make any sense.

I think you might be misunderstanding the point of this thread. It's not about invincibility during a BB, it's about the invincibility during the recovery frames after.

 

[RurouniLoneWolf]

Yeah, I've been meaning to ask about this one. This felt like an odd design choice. I don't think Blockbusters that are safe on block are a problem but like you said, some blockbusters have so much invuln that even if you block it, you have to delay your punish just right if you don't want to whiff through the invuln. It makes punishing things without a means to practice an interesting mini-game of sorts for me, where my character dies if I don't get the timing right. The worst is whiff punishing Hatred Install. I'm not even trying to punish it anymore really. I'm just doing my best not to get bopped by the ton of active frames this move has, lol.

 

[missingno]

Making every single super safe on block, even fast reversals like SSJ, is such a baffling design decision. And old habits die hard, at first I kept trying to punish Argus between the beams only to be reminded that you can't do that here.

I really just want to know, why on earth is it like this? I just do not get this at all.

 

[DarkaiXeno]

The invincibiliity i have no problems with, but the recovery time after the BB has ended on some Bb's are a little too long and i cant punish some BB's like i can with others after they end

 

[missingno]

I think I should clarify exactly what the issue is. As far as I can tell, every super is fully invincible all the way through recovery. Anything that looks like a punish is just the AI choosing not to block afterwards. But I've never not been able to block after my own supers, so I'm pretty sure they're actually all safe.

I'm not entirely sure how I feel about all supers having startup invincibility, even ones that never did originally like Argus. But no super should have invincible recovery, especially not ones you'd expect to be punishable like in the original game. Some may still be safe because they're + on block, though these ones tend not to also have invincible startup, so...

 

[Osterus]

I think I should clarify exactly what the issue is. As far as I can tell, every super is fully invincible all the way through recovery. Anything that looks like a punish is just the AI choosing not to block afterwards. But I've never not been able to block after my own supers, so I'm pretty sure they're actually all safe.

I'm not entirely sure how I feel about all supers having startup invincibility, even ones that never did originally like Argus. But no super should have invincible recovery, especially not ones you'd expect to be punishable like in the original game. Some may still be safe because they're + on block, though these ones tend not to also have invincible startup, so...

Argus always had full invincibility.

The only change made was the enemy now blocks the first wave.

 

[missingno]

I'm comparing it to the original Skullgirls. Argus is not invincible there.

 

[Liam]

"Good news everyone!"

We're currently working on adjusting all of the BB's to be consistent with their post recovery vulnerability frames.
Hopefully by the time the next update arrives, most (if not all) of them should be easily punishable after you block them.

That being said, some moves may still have enough knockback to push fighters out of the range of their first tap attacks, which would still make them effectively "safe" unless you buffer long ranged moves for when your fighter recovers such as BB1 - Argus Agony.

 

[BambooEarpick]

"Good news everyone!"

We're currently working on adjusting all of the BB's to be consistent with their post recovery vulnerability frames.
Hopefully by the time the next update arrives, most (if not all) of them should be easily punishable after you block them.

That being said, some moves may still have enough knockback to push fighters out of the range of their first tap attacks, which would still make them effectively "safe" unless you buffer long ranged moves for when your fighter recovers such as BB1 - Argus Agony.

Sweet!~

I understand supers that push people away will be unpunishable, that's fine. For something like Argus Agony, though, would we maybe see a reduction in chip damage because of how unpunishable it is? Just throwing an idea out there, it's not like Argus Agony chip is game breaking or anything.

Thank you always for listening.

 

[Cellsai]

So happy to see this change coming. The seemingly random punishability of BBs currently bugs me a lot!