Catalyst Discussion

[Pepperlunatic]

Overall, I think the whole idea of “gives X effect when hit” is just too easy to trigger powerful defensive mechanics. Giving it a 5% doesn’t mean anything as the game heavily promotes multi-hits and combos. Unless this is the devs secretly telling us to use less Multihit BBs and use single hit special moves instead.

This is so true. 5% means nothing if it just keep triggering on hit despite of being 5%. There should be some mechanism that reduces the probability of triggering defensive on hits effects when it triggers for better player experience.

What are your ideas for adjusting and tuning oppressing catalysts?

For armor rating and other armor stuff, I think we should just make armor to get 10% damage reduction per stack instead of 25% and make armor break to prevent further armor gains during its duration. Armor is just too common in many defenses and way too effective for its commonality. Also, since it is much more difficult to give armor break than get armor on hit, armor break should nullify armor for its duration to make it be more reliable counter.

For anything that relies on immunity, it would be nice to make immunity have 5 stacks and stack 5 does exactly what it does previously while other stacks give 20% resistance on debuff and other effects per stacks. This way, we can reduce power of some of the immunity modifiers, SA, and catalyst without having to remove immunity completely.

Rest of those you put up there does not seem to have much better option other than removing them they are just fundamentally annoying and not adds anything fun into the game.

 

[fanghoul]

Two catalysts that I think might need serious review:

1) "Return to Sender", because having a 90% chance to revive, that it turns out overrides even Catastrophe Cannon Omega's revive suppression, just makes it too easy to time out a fight.

2) Futile Resistance chips you for damage even for parts of attacks that aren't supposed to be dealing damage. If your throw has a grab animation, then throws the enemy, you get damaged for the animation. It feels crazy to be being punished for there being inbetween actions in some attacks.


Armor Rating, Blockbusted, Scratching Post all deserve a look too, but these two are annoying me the most right now because they can't really be avoided.

 

[TonyPartridge30]

2) Futile Resistance chips you for damage even for parts of attacks that aren't supposed to be dealing damage. If your throw has a grab animation, then throws the enemy, you get damaged for the animation. It feels crazy to be being punished for there being inbetween actions in some attacks.

I think that's a two-part issue there. Certainly, Futile Resistance should be looked at in terms of things like outtake moves, but their rework of how throws now work should also be reviewed, since they now treat the damageless "grab" portion of the throw as a hit, which can proc throw-based abilities before you can break out of the grab.

 

[Liam]

It feels crazy to be being punished for there being inbetween actions in some attacks.

Mentioned in a few other threads, but this logic is currently planned to be reworked so that throw "touches" do not activate Signature Abilities. It will have to be a throw hit that actually deals damage.

1) "Return to Sender", because having a 90% chance to revive, that it turns out overrides even Catastrophe Cannon Omega's revive suppression, just makes it too easy to time out a fight.

Oh, that's a bug, I think! I'll fix that.

 

[fanghoul]

Mentioned in a few other threads, but this logic is currently planned to be reworked so that throw "touches" do not activate Signature Abilities. It will have to be a throw hit that actually deals damage.

Cool, so this planned change will apply to catalysts too then?

Oh, that's a bug, I think! I'll fix that.

Hah! I'm glad to see that my habit of doing dumb things, like seeing if my lv 49 gold Purrmanator beat two Squigly's with fight scores in the 20,000s during a high stakes Rift Battle, is useful for testing

 

[Liam]

Hah! I'm glad to see that my habit of doing dumb things, like seeing if my lv 49 gold Purrmanator beat two Squigly's with fight scores in the 20,000s during a high stakes Rift Battle, is useful for testing

Fwiw, after trying to reproduce this, I couldn't. Is it possible you used Alpha, or Gamma? (The upgraded version during Circuit Breaker?)

All the logic for Omega preventing the Squigly revive is set up correctly from what I can see.

 

[fanghoul]

Fwiw, after trying to reproduce this, I couldn't. Is it possible you used Alpha, or Gamma? (The upgraded version during Circuit Breaker?)

All the logic for Omega preventing the Squigly revive is set up correctly from what I can see.

Hmm, it was against a Bioexorcist if that matters. Probably it doesn't. It was Omega. I'm wondering if I killed her with some accidental boop of damage after the Omega took most of her health off.

Sorry to yet again report something that's not replicable

 

[educavalcantee]

When a defending Double switches to an element, she still will be affected by element based catalysts?

 

[fanghoul]

When a defending Double switches to an element, she still will be affected by element based catalysts?

I know that she's effected by whatever her current element is by modifiers in general (such as during the Light Prize Fight) and I would imagine that extends to catalysts as well.

 

[TonyPartridge30]

When a defending Double switches to an element, she still will be affected by element based catalysts?

Depends on when the effect of the catalyst activates. Like, if it's an effect that applies to Light fighters at the beginning of a match, switching a non-light Double to Light element probably wouldn't trigger the effect.

 

[BallotBoxer]

If I had a Death Note, I'd write these catalyst names:

• Darknut
• Futile Resistance
• Armor Rating
• Frost Armor

Pretty much any catalyst that has to do with armor is a super annoying guarantee for a time-out defeat. It makes it worse when someone combos with Autoimmune catalyst or Surgeon General Valentine to stop armor-break attacks.

I've taken the implausible stance of leading by example and not using awful catalysts. I've seen them in the Cabinet of Curiosities and not bought 'em. I want my opponent to have a difficult challenge, not despair.

 

[xcapibara]

If I had a Death Note, I'd write these catalyst names:

• Darknut
• Futile Resistance
• Armor Rating
• Frost Armor

You forgot:
- High Waters
- Into Thin Air
- Blockbusted
- Scratching Post
- Return to Sender

Absolutely broken annoying stuff. I would really like those gone from the game.

 

[fanghoul]

Honesly, if I only could remove one, it'd probably be Return to Sender. So many Rift Battle loses in the harder nodes come from time-outs, and adding the equivalent of up to 1.5 more characters worth of health to fight though is just too much, and there's not a lot of good ways to work around it.

 

[xcapibara]

It is also how they interact with each other: Autoimmune with any of those makes them even more absurd.

 

[fanghoul]

Curse can get the job done there, but there really are only so many ways that I have prepared to apply curse, especially when there's so many other things to consider in a 3 person party.

 

[Yujipooji]

i’m sure it’s already been brought up, but armor rating and futile resistance interaction, combined with the weird throw attempt being registered as a hit thing makes a lot of big band nodes a doom or die situation.

i’m honestly not entirely sure if it’s futile itself that’s the problem. if armor rating had 50% reduction instead of 100, and throw attempts don’t proc the catalyst, futile is very beatable. I for one might stop using futile on my boss if armor rating and the throw thing gets fixed

 

[Keedledum]

rift battles are just stressful at this point. having to waste at least 14 hours/week to get rewards is just weak af. it was never fun, but every week it feels more like work instead of fun & games. i'm not bringing anything new to the table here, since everyone else already said what i'm going to say, but i felt like it was important to show my disappointment with the whole rift situation (which was only worsened by the catalysts). thanks, i hate it

 

[Tom Kulczewski]

If I had a Death Note, I'd write these catalyst names:

• Darknut
• Futile Resistance
• Armor Rating
• Frost Armor

Pretty much any catalyst that has to do with armor is a super annoying guarantee for a time-out defeat. It makes it worse when someone combos with Autoimmune catalyst or Surgeon General Valentine to stop armor-break attacks.

I've taken the implausible stance of leading by example and not using awful catalysts. I've seen them in the Cabinet of Curiosities and not bought 'em. I want my opponent to have a difficult challenge, not despair.

My only problem with Armor Rating's the fact that it essentially gives every fighter in the game UT's SA1. Tho it might be tricky, armor gain can be worked around, but when an uncounterable lucky '0 damage proc' has the potential to screw over your whole battle, that's a problem lol

And I read Liam say they weren't thinking of doing anything to Armor Rating atm on Discord the other day, which worries me. They have to understand it's not just its interaction with Futile Res which makes it almost unbearable, but it's spamability, lack of internal CD, and some sort of catalyst penalty for dupes on a same map.

EDIT: Okay they're looking into it. Good. Also I liked the idea Jaz00 provided on earlier comments about Armor Rating. Tho it would honestly kill it, it'd open spaces for new ideas and overall funnier nodes. We'd maybe even see more of the underused-but-nice-theory ones like Light Weight and such

 

[Liam]

I read Liam say they weren't thinking of doing anything to Armor Rating atm on Discord the other day, which worries me

Hmm... This isn't something I said. Maybe double check that the message came from me?

 

[Tom Kulczewski]

Hmm... This isn't something I said. Maybe double check that the message came from me?

Sorry; specifically it was OddLegend asking you if there were plans to remove the damage avoidance part of Armor Rating, to which you said no plans on doing that atm. And tho the armor gain part of Armor Rating's kinda broken, I think the 0 damage RNG part is way more frustrating.