• [2018/06/22]
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Fights Daily Rework Feedback or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb

HeGunz

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Hello friends, it is Bear. I had written about 5 pages then decided that was too much; let me hit on the important notes instead.
Note: I have a very narrow view from the top 1%, please comment below anything I whiffed on.

Brief History Lesson
The bulk of this patch is excellent and makes me excited for what’s to come. The daily changes, however, remind me of some terrible updates we’ve had in the past that were reverted and ultimately lead (in most cases) to a better game. These include, but are not limited to:

  • Character Relics becoming 50% chance to drop their namesake fighter instead of being guaranteed. Akin to how <new fighter theme> Premier Relics worked on the soft-launches of Fukua, Annie and Umbrella.
  • Tier 3 blockbuster logic being reverted to firing off the frame they were fully charged, even if it was on AI tag in (See: Ritual Sacrifice MA)
  • Armor Rating Catalyst, Grab hit-procs, Auto Immune, Sacrosanct, etc rift mods
  • Enemy FS scaling while the exp/points granted did not

I can go on but the point is this; we have seen horrible changes in the past, we will see more in the future. While I sincerely hope we see faster turn around and adjustments than we had before, it’s our responsibility to submit feedback and suggest realistic fixes to the perceived problems.

Expectation and Reality
What I expected from this update:

When I log in I get X(2?) tickets to skip X dailies of my choice and then cut 20-25 minutes from my daily grind. Wow! Amazing!

What I got from this update:
I have lost access to Holodeck, Accursed Experiments, a few million coins and filler content. As it stands now my choices are to either endlessly grind (1) tier of Prize Fights or grind rifts.

What the Daily Passes do right:
1) Holodeck Hazards now yields giga EXP amounts beyond just the boss and can be done multiple times a day.
2) You can instantly complete any daily once you’ve cleared that tier before.
3) Daily passes are free and we can choose to splurge or to stockpile them when a less desired event is active (glaring in your directions Ben, Parasol). Note: stockpiling tickets is near impossible with a limit of 4, but *some* stockpiling can be done.
4) A boon in most regards for the casual/early game player.

On to where these changes fall flat:
Coins have always been the most restrictive currency in this game and over the years lead to multiple new streams being introduced to obtain them. Between the “challenge” mode Medici fights added to Weekdays, Origin stories, Master modes, Accolades, Prize Fight reward overhauls and optional albeit very lucrative slog that was daily events we recently were approaching a comfortable spot with potential income.

While these changes aim to curb the drudgery of grinding up to 224 trivial fights a week, the way it does so is very heavy handed. I feel it skirts around the deeper issues I’ve previously touched on that led to the top percentage submitting themselves to this unhealthy grind.

At most we are only clearing 21 Master-tier events a week. This means at maximum of 953,400 coins a week (not factoring in any gold moves sold) where previously one could make 2,647,240 coins a week (again, not factoring in sold skills). This leads to a deficit of approximately 1.7 million coins (the cost of taking a skill from 13 > 15 or 30%~ of a diamond fighter) each week.

Ultimately the potential loss leads to a situation where those aiming to play “competitively” have less means of catching up to those already ahead.

Where’s the beef?
The randomness and cost of skills in nearly all aspects is where I feel this game and its economy currently fails the hardest and is one of the biggest reasons the limits applied to dailies stings so bad. To paraphrase a player on discord: “Flat stats prevent me from investing into moves so I choose to not do dailies at all, they feel pointless.” This game is a gacha, sure! However, being unable to effectively play because (1) skill refuses to roll well or even drop after literal years of searching is disheartening beyond reason.

Further example
For this patch I stockpiled skill relics. Of the 1,100 relics I opened on patch day, only 20 of them were what I deemed usable. Of those 20, only 2 were skills I was in need of. The rest were backup/potential rerolls should better skills fail to roll as needed for competitive play.

Rather than first addressing some core issues such as:

  • Not being able to target what skills drop
  • Raw/flat HP and ATK values, Crit Resistance, Elemental Penalty still existing
  • Being unable to adjust/reroll stat lines
  • Absurd cost relative to the pay off of maxing gold-tier skills
We have instead:
  • Walled off Holodeck Hazards and Accursed Experiments.
  • Lopped off 60% of the door prize coins that propped up an abysmal move-hunting daily system.
  • Shunted ability to EITHER pay into moves after they finally dropped OR invest in guaranteed value (but still prohibitively expensive) Diamond fighters.
How do we proceed?

For the immediate future (within the next 2 weeks) I would like to see:
  • At least (1) free entry into Holodeck Hazards with the option to pay for additional Holodecks via tickets.
  • Accursed Experiments either being free to enter OR refunding its ticket cost upon 100% completion for the week
  • No ticket cost to manually play any daily fight, regardless of difficulty, and tickets being used to instantly clear any previously cleared difficulty, up to 2 times a day.
In the longer term we could perhaps return to this more restrictive system but not without major overhauls to the cost of skills, upgrade breakpoints and functionality of skill upgrades, literally any agency over what can/cannot drop, and additional (perhaps weekly) content to fill the void beyond just rifting and a single rotating prize fight tier.

For the time being? Bear (ha) with it and be civil. Improvements will come and granted how solid the framework of the actual skip feature is I would wager additional patches dial us in just right until the entire picture is ultimately realized.

TL;DR
Daily rework needs more time in the oven, skills and their associated flaws remain the core issue to be fixed IMO.
 
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Mornedil

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This hit me pretty hard:
However, being unable to effectively play because (1) skill refuses to roll well or even drop after literal years of searching is disheartening beyond reason.

I still can't find the moves I'm looking for after 3 years of playing.
The issue is especially bad when you're looking for a specific move with specific stats. (for example, looking for a Hit Paws with Atk% + Piercing + Accuracy). But even when making compromises with what stats you would accept on the move, you could spend years before finding it, and then when you finally find it... bad rolls could completely ruin it.


I made a suggestion back in 2019 about move evolution (link to topic) to make it easier to get gold moves with the stats you want, in addition to giving a use to bronze & silver moves, which currently have little to no use other than being sold.

The basic idea is that you can take 1 bronze move with Atk%, combine it with another bronze move with piercing, to get a silver move with atk%+piercing. Then do the same with silver moves to get a gold move with the 3 specific stats you want.
if the moves you evolve have too many or too few different stats than the next tier move would have, it would pick the stats it can and fill in the gaps with a random stat.
To guarantee gold moves getting the stats you want you'd need to have 1 dupe stat on the silver moves (for example a silver move with attack+piercing and another one with attack+HP, resulting in a gold move with attack+piercing+HP)



As for dailies, I agree that more attention should have been given to how the new system affects coin gains, but I also appreciate the reduction in grinding required.
Previously, I had completely stopped doing dailies with the exception of Ms. Fortune + Robo dailies because grinding dailies every day was simply too tedious. So despite the potential maximum coin gain being severely reduced, I personally was seeing only a fraction of those coins due to laziness.
I can kind of understand that being able to instantly claim rewards results in having to limit how much we can claim, but I agree that some of the daily events could have allowed us to play them without using tickets at all, a least once.
 
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Dusty00

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Thanks for starting this very healthy and constructive thread, Bear. This pretty much summarizes what all I would say to the Devs as well. I especially love the history section and hope you could add more. There aren’t many of us OG players left that are active in the community. Hopefully it serves as a reference post for further discussion and tweaks.
 

Dusty00

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This hit me pretty hard:


I still can't find the moves I'm looking for after 3 years of playing.
The issue is especially bad when you're looking for a specific move with specific stats. (for example, looking for a Hit Paws with Atk% + Piercing + Accuracy). But even when making compromises with what stats you would accept on the move, you could spend years before finding it, and then when you finally find it... bad rolls could completely ruin it.


I made a suggestion back in 2019 about move evolution (link to topic) to make it easier to get gold moves with the stats you want, in addition to giving a use to bronze & silver moves, which currently have little to no use other than being sold.

The basic idea is that you can take 1 bronze move with Atk%, combine it with another bronze move with piercing, to get a silver move with atk%+piercing. Then do the same with silver moves to get a gold move with the 3 specific stats you want.
if the moves you evolve have too many or too few different stats than the next tier move would have, it would pick the stats it can and fill in the gaps with a random stat.
To guarantee gold moves getting the stats you want you'd need to have 1 dupe stat on the silver moves (for example a silver move with attack+piercing and another one with attack+HP, resulting in a gold move with attack+piercing+HP)



As for dailies, I agree that more attention should have been given to how the new system affects coin gains, but I also appreciate the reduction in grinding required.
Previously, I had completely stopped doing dailies with the exception of Ms. Fortune + Robo dailies because grinding dailies every day was simply too tedious. So despite the potential maximum coin gain being severely reduced, I personally was seeing only a fraction of those coins due to laziness.
I can kind of understand that being able to instantly claim rewards results in having to limit how much we can claim, but I agree that some of the daily events could have allowed us to play them without using tickets at all, a least once.
That move evolution thread was a great discussion back then. I’ll post there another recent idea on inheriting stats from moves - that would give us more agency IMO.
 

HeGunz

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As for dailies, I agree that more attention should have been given to how the new system affects coin gains, but I also appreciate the reduction in grinding required.
Previously, I had completely stopped doing dailies with the exception of Ms. Fortune + Robo dailies because grinding dailies every day was simply too tedious. So despite the potential maximum coin gain being severely reduced, I personally was seeing only a fraction of those coins due to laziness.
I can kind of understand that being able to instantly claim rewards results in having to limit how much we can claim, but I agree that some of the daily events could have allowed us to play them without using tickets at all, a least once.

I very much appreciate not having to slog through even just master+expert daily and instead being able to press a button and get 2x master tier rewards. The framework is great but it feels a bit cart before the horse.

The full Monty of basic-master for every fighter is something we needed to be saved from ourselves over, it was something I recommended only doing in moderation when you were pushing or close to finishing a big project (Lvl 15 set, new diamond fighter, prepping for a new patch). Even without the data in front of me I doubt enough were doing it to warrant keeping however the timing is such that there is no alternative income stream for the F2Ps and the rewards granted have not been changed by any means other than acquisition.
 

Scorialimit

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Ultimately the potential loss leads to a situation where those aiming to play “competitively” have less means of catching up to those already ahead.
As someone who's returning because of this patch, I've been thinking this a lot. I'm spending one of my tickets in AE specifically because it gives more coins. I currently have enough coins to max a diamond, and probably won't do it. It's better to optimize the strong fighters I have. Don't see myself taking a move past 9 after this patch until I'm confident in my collection (if the effect mandates it, I'll take a silver or bronze one to 15, a good effect makes up for the 10% damage loss). Don't think I'll ever invest in a defender as coins are so limited putting them in a fighter I won't use just feels awful (and the D4-3 range is so wide, I'm pretty confident defense isn't needed for it). Testing the waters on a move is usually 3 but stops at 6. If it doesn't roll amazingly from there it's too much of a coin sink.

Another game I remember tried doing something similar, making a simple mode not as required to play by making it limited. I could never have been a top player in that game because I quite simply could never get the resources to. In some ways that was okay, because I didn't want to be a top player. But I was also immensely limited in what I was able to do. I wanted to make some memes. But I couldn't, because then I couldn't compete when I felt like actually playing the game and not some silly stuff.

I feel like the loss of coins affects the latter for me. I'm pretty comfy that I could, in theory, hit D1-2 if I cared enough. But if I want to invest in say, M-3ow, it's really hard to justify. I can't really use the budget X-Bot argument since you gotta spend ~5m for functional moves. Level 6 moves just won't have enough cooldown without HQ.

I have some faith that there's other coin pipelines coming in. Really hope that's true, or I might find myself getting bored again. I can only play the same fighters for so long. We need more coins, but I don't vibe with "we have the option to suffer for a resource or not". Feels like a half baked solution, especially when people consider it mandatory for late game content. I'd rather we just get more coins per daily, more coins in other places where we enjoy the game, or just more content that happens to give coins.
 

I Am [Uchiha]

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Hello friends, it is Bear. I had written about 5 pages then decided that was too much; let me hit on the important notes instead.
Note: I have a very narrow view from the top 1%, please comment below anything I whiffed on.

Brief History Lesson
The bulk of this patch is excellent and makes me excited for what’s to come. The daily changes, however, remind me of some terrible updates we’ve had in the past that were reverted and ultimately lead (in most cases) to a better game. These include, but are not limited to:

  • Character Relics becoming 50% chance to drop their namesake fighter instead of being guaranteed. Akin to how <new fighter theme> Premier Relics worked on the soft-launches of Fukua, Annie and Umbrella.
  • Tier 3 blockbuster logic being reverted to firing off the frame they were fully charged, even if it was on AI tag in (See: Ritual Sacrifice MA)
  • Armor Rating Catalyst, Grab hit-procs, Auto Immune, Sacrosanct, etc rift mods
  • Enemy FS scaling while the exp/points granted did not

I can go on but the point is this; we have seen horrible changes in the past, we will see more in the future. While I sincerely hope we see faster turn around and adjustments than we had before, it’s our responsibility to submit feedback and suggest realistic fixes to the perceived problems.

Expectation and Reality
What I expected from this update:

When I log in I get X(2?) tickets to skip X dailies of my choice and then cut 20-25 minutes from my daily grind. Wow! Amazing!

What I got from this update:
I have lost access to Holodeck, Accursed Experiments, a few million coins and filler content. As it stands now my choices are to either endlessly grind (1) tier of Prize Fights or grind rifts.

What the Daily Passes do right:
1) Holodeck Hazards now yields giga EXP amounts beyond just the boss and can be done multiple times a day.
2) You can instantly complete any daily once you’ve cleared that tier before.
3) Daily passes are free and we can choose to splurge or to stockpile them when a less desired event is active (glaring in your directions Ben, Parasol). Note: stockpiling tickets is near impossible with a limit of 4, but *some* stockpiling can be done.
4) A boon in most regards for the casual/early game player.

On to where these changes fall flat:
Coins have always been the most restrictive currency in this game and over the years lead to multiple new streams being introduced to obtain them. Between the “challenge” mode Medici fights added to Weekdays, Origin stories, Master modes, Accolades, Prize Fight reward overhauls and optional albeit very lucrative slog that was daily events we recently were approaching a comfortable spot with potential income.

While these changes aim to curb the drudgery of grinding up to 224 trivial fights a week, the way it does so is very heavy handed. I feel it skirts around the deeper issues I’ve previously touched on that led to the top percentage submitting themselves to this unhealthy grind.

At most we are only clearing 21 Master-tier events a week. This means at maximum of 953,400 coins a week (not factoring in any gold moves sold) where previously one could make 2,647,240 coins a week (again, not factoring in sold skills). This leads to a deficit of approximately 1.7 million coins (the cost of taking a skill from 13 > 15 or 30%~ of a diamond fighter) each week.

Ultimately the potential loss leads to a situation where those aiming to play “competitively” have less means of catching up to those already ahead.

Where’s the beef?
The randomness and cost of skills in nearly all aspects is where I feel this game and its economy currently fails the hardest and is one of the biggest reasons the limits applied to dailies stings so bad. To paraphrase a player on discord: “Flat stats prevent me from investing into moves so I choose to not do dailies at all, they feel pointless.” This game is a gacha, sure! However, being unable to effectively play because (1) skill refuses to roll well or even drop after literal years of searching is disheartening beyond reason.

Further example
For this patch I stockpiled skill relics. Of the 1,100 relics I opened on patch day, only 20 of them were what I deemed usable. Of those 20, only 2 were skills I was in need of. The rest were backup/potential rerolls should better skills fail to roll as needed for competitive play.

Rather than first addressing some core issues such as:

  • Not being able to target what skills drop
  • Raw/flat HP and ATK values, Crit Resistance, Elemental Penalty still existing
  • Being unable to adjust/reroll stat lines
  • Absurd cost relative to the pay off of maxing gold-tier skills
We have instead:
  • Walled off Holodeck Hazards and Accursed Experiments.
  • Lopped off 60% of the door prize coins that propped up an abysmal move-hunting daily system.
  • Shunted ability to EITHER pay into moves after they finally dropped OR invest in guaranteed value (but still prohibitively expensive) Diamond fighters.
How do we proceed?

For the immediate future (within the next 2 weeks) I would like to see:
  • At least (1) free entry into Holodeck Hazards with the option to pay for additional Holodecks via tickets.
  • Accursed Experiments either being free to enter OR refunding its ticket cost upon 100% completion for the week
  • No ticket cost to manually play any daily fight, regardless of difficulty, and tickets being used to instantly clear any previously cleared difficulty, up to 2 times a day.
In the longer term we could perhaps return to this more restrictive system but not without major overhauls to the cost of skills, upgrade breakpoints and functionality of skill upgrades, literally any agency over what can/cannot drop, and additional (perhaps weekly) content to fill the void beyond just rifting and a single rotating prize fight tier.

For the time being? Bear (ha) with it and be civil. Improvements will come and granted how solid the framework of the actual skip feature is I would wager additional patches dial us in just right until the entire picture is ultimately realized.

TL;DR
Daily rework needs more time in the oven, skills and their associated flaws remain the core issue to be fixed IMO.
Took the words right outta my mouth... I don't think they'll see this though. lol
 
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HeGunz

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I have some faith that there's other coin pipelines coming in. Really hope that's true, or I might find myself getting bored again. I can only play the same fighters for so long. We need more coins, but I don't vibe with "we have the option to suffer for a resource or not". Feels like a half baked solution, especially when people consider it mandatory for late game content. I'd rather we just get more coins per daily, more coins in other places where we enjoy the game, or just more content that happens to give coins.
Can only hope so. Dropped 6.5m today to at least make Umbrellas feel playable and then realized how long that takes to replace now, felt pretty bad. I'd imagine they have some timeline to work off at least and just starting at the lowest power level to avoid having to nerf from it being "too good"? The entry level they chose to go with though feels a bit off.
 

I Am [Uchiha]

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Well I've had worse.... Before the 5.1 release, I gave myself a target to get 1b coins... A few minutes before I updated to 5.1 I dunked 7mil unlocking skill tress of my favorite gold fighters, knowing fully well I can recover the money from the new release, but met my utmost disappointment with the ticket thing... I feel... Bankrupt... Lol... Anyway its well...


I don't think I will ever get tired playing the game unlike others before me who met some dead ends and quit... Cus to me the game is an escape...
 

HeGunz

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Well I've had worse.... Before the 5.1 release, I gave myself a target to get 1b coins... A few minutes before I updated to 5.1 I dunked 7mil unlocking skill tress of my favorite gold fighters, knowing fully well I can recover the money from the new release, but met my utmost disappointment with the ticket thing... I feel... Bankrupt... Lol... Anyway its well...


I don't think I will ever get tired playing the game unlike others before me who met some dead ends and quit... Cus to me the game is an escape...
I strongly doubt you actually attempted to farm 4-5 years worth* of coins but if you're spending that much on the game, good on ya.
 

I Am [Uchiha]

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I got 10mil in two weeks... I hustle on everything that gives coin...

The 15k deployment.

I have sold all my bronze and silver moves and replaced all with gold... selling of unwanted gold moves...

Sometimes I get 10k - 5k from gifting.

I grind dailies, suppose there are 3 dailies, I grind at advanced - with low level fighters [that way to toughen them up for bigger fights] then I grind on expert and master, while getting moves on the long run I sell the unwanted ones.

Then I grind HH & AE...

Then you have prize fights... I compare the rewards in each tier difficulty, I don't have strong fighters to play the diamond difficulty but I still play it just to get the coins and theonites in it... But if there's a prize fight of a gold character I like, I play it, get the coins, theos and the fighter...

Then you have the Medici crime fight thing that come 3 times a week!... Grinding the MFC gives an estimated amount of 600k coins...

Plus story and origin story fights.... I do these everyday and got 10mil in two weeks.... I was down and ready to get 1b coins but I don't see how that will be possible with the ticket that has been introduced...

Sorry it's a long read!
 

I Am [Uchiha]

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I got 10mil in two weeks... I hustle on everything that gives coin...

The 15k deployment.

I have sold all my bronze and silver moves and replaced all with gold... selling of unwanted gold moves...

Sometimes I get 10k - 5k from gifting.

I grind dailies, suppose there are 3 dailies, I grind at advanced - with low level fighters [that way to toughen them up for bigger fights] then I grind on expert and master, while getting moves on the long run I sell the unwanted ones.

Then I grind HH & AE...

Then you have prize fights... I compare the rewards in each tier difficulty, I don't have strong fighters to play the diamond difficulty but I still play it just to get the coins and theonites in it... But if there's a prize fight of a gold character I like, I play it, get the coins, theos and the fighter...

Then you have the Medici crime fight thing that come 3 times a week!... Grinding the MFC gives an estimated amount of 600k coins...

Plus story and origin story fights.... I do these everyday and got 10mil in two weeks.... I was down and ready to get 1b coins but I don't see how that will be possible with the ticket that has been introduced...

Sorry it's a long read!
LOL. I'm supposed to be grinding Cerebella and double on advanced, expert and master but I have only 3 tickets, I played the master of both and saved 1 ticket for tomorrow when I get 3 tickets so I can play the 3 daily event and one from HH... This is... PAINFUL 😂
 
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BallotBoxer

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Daily Event reform:
- Accursed Experiments should not cost a ticket (can only be done weekly and hasn't changed)
+ Holodeck Hazards continues to cost a ticket (the juiced XP and replay opportunity is nice)
+ Skips for character daily cost a ticket
- no ticket cost for playing through character daily manually (upon completion, a ticket will be needed for reset)

I'm no coin grinder, so the update has been all benefits to me. I'm making a final tour of dailies, completing the Master difficulties and never playing them again. Just skips for moves I need for now on! (My Dream Band Big Band has been waiting for a Take the A Train BB for nearly 2 years, lol)

Here's an amusing metaphor I saw in the in-game chat:

The Daily Event change is like a vet putting a big dog on a diet. There are 4 bowls for different-sized dogs. HVS is the vet and the big dog is the coin grinders. The 4 bowls:
BASIC
ADVANCED
EXPERT
MASTER

Instead of eating only from the MASTER bowl as intended, the big dog chomps down all 4 meals. The other dogs don't starve because there is infinite kibble, but the vet sees the big dog's gluttony as unhealthy.

I kinda see what they are saying. The low-level stuff is meant for low-level players. If you are above it, it is no longer meant for you and grinding it is a time-consuming and boring exploit of the intended design. As others brought up, the major problem here is moves and their stats, not particularly the Daily Event change.
 

I Am [Uchiha]

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The Daily Event change is like a vet putting a big dog on a diet. There are 4 bowls for different-sized dogs. HVS is the vet and the big dog is the coin grinders. The 4 bowls:
BASIC
ADVANCED
EXPERT
MASTER

Instead of eating only from the MASTER bowl as intended, the big dog chomps down all 4 meals. The other dogs don't starve because there is infinite kibble, but the vet sees the big dog's gluttony as unhealthy.
i didn't understand anything but it sounds okay to me