Characters Reworking suggestion of Heavy handed

[Aoskull]

It seems that many players want Heavy Handed to rework abilities. I’m one of them too, so I made an idea of reworking. Here’s the details.

Heavy Handed

Signature1 - Gain ENRAGE every 0.3/0.2/0.1 seconds while charging a CHARGE ATTACK, and gain UNFLINCHING for 8 seconds when reaching 5 stacks of ENRAGE. One ENRAGE is removed when HIT an attack.

Signature2: PIERCING increases 3/4/5% per BUFFS that currently applied. (cannot exceed 50%)

•Her problem is that all buff is removed when hit an attack, which makes her difficult to doing continuous fight. This becomes noticeable in high-streak prize and parallel realms, current situation is that she often used in low-streak prize or defense team, and not much used in serious battles.

•First, I think combining current two signatures is good idea. This will allow her to completely rework the signature2.

•Let’s change “ALL enrage” to “One enrage ”. This will allow her to strengthen her attacks for 5 times, makes her more powerful than before, and recharge will also become easier if you couldn’t use all enrage within the unflinching time (I’ll explain it later) ! Cerebella has many strong one hit moves, increasing instant firepower will also become easier, too. Unflinching is no longer be removed when hit an attack, makes her really easy to do forcible attacks. However, to avoid her becoming OP, I decreased duration a little.

•Alright, everyone, let's talk about the reworking of her signature2. I think there are many opinions about it, but my thinking is “PIERCING increases 5% per her buffs currently applied”. As a feeling, it is similar to Jawbreaker’s signature2. It allows you to create room to invest options other than piercing to make her stronger than before. This will allow her to increase her instantaneous firepower and do the continuous fight easier. (she can attack with 30% increased piercing on the first hit after activate signature1!) Since it also increases by the buffs that inflicted by other tools, Taunt and BB3 are the best moves for her to equip. Surgeon General, Rose-Tinted, Model Leader etc. would be the best teammates for her.

 

[Kheul]

Hey, hope you are doing well.

I think the biggest problem lies in the game mechanics itself. You can't really use charge attacks reliably, two per match at best. So her current SAs are really flawed. Though with good crowd control like stun, wither/disable bb, disable specials, disable tag-in etc it could be possible. For example Scare Giver can use charge attacks far better than Heavy Handed as she can wither with her SA and disable specials and tag-ins with her marquee, so most enemies can't counter charge attacks at all when correctly timed. Having just unflinching is pretty much a death wish for an offensive variant.

You can find some workarounds for sure, like Excellbella's 6 sec stun, but the reward? Just more damage, look at creature of habit, she can reliably get to 5 enrages and even if they removed the "enrages are removed when a bb is used" from CoH's kit, she still wouldn't be that good as the only thing she offered would still be only damage. She is just outclassed by other nukers. Some of them just have better signature abilities or better moves as a character. I don't think this buff is enough for people to actually use her, as she doesn't provide anything other than very conditional damage increase.

Even though I want her buffed as much as you do, I just can't see how this kit can be appliciable in the meta or give me any reason to build her other than just for fun. Hope you don't get me wrong I just wanted to tell what I genuinely thought, see you around.

 

[Aoskull]

Hi, friend! I'm glad to see you again. Well, this is the first time I've received so much criticism for my opinion, but I think your opinion makes sense. With this in mind, I’ve made some updates to her abilities. Forget the previous one.

Signature1 - When you activating CHARGE ATTACK, Gain 3/4/5 stacks of ENRAGE and UNFLINCHING for 10 seconds.

Signature2: ENRAGE and UNFLINCHING’s duration increases by 0.5 second for every 5% of her PIERCING.

• Removed her signature1’s enrage disappearance effect and changed the enrage’s activation condition a little. You still need to activate charge attack, but you won't have to use it as many times as you used to (until her buffs are removed!).

• Tbh I think charge attack is kind of personality that has shaped her over the years, so I don't want to completely change it. “Increase usability while maintaining previous elements of signature” is my ideal adjustment.

• You think the duration is kind of short? Good news. I made an interesting changes for her signature2. Enrage and unflinching’s duration will increase by 0.5% per her piercing! That means if her piercing is 50%, signature1’s enrage and unflinching’s duration will become 15 seconds!! It will be hard to set her piecing 50%, but you can get really high return. These buff’s duration can also be increased by those obtained with other tools.

• To maintain fairness, piercing will no longer increases by her signature.

 

[Stone]

I think the biggest issue is that just getting enrage and unflinching, even for 15s, doesn't cut it for a diamond, especially a Bella. yes, its a 100% damage increase. Apart from that, it barely changes her utility/matchups though.

Id suggest something along the lines of deadeye, precision + death mark, or something really unique that sets her apart from other Bellas instead of just having more attack and nothing else. I do agree that it has to be something related to the charge attack as that is her signature.

 

[Kheul]

I think you can go with somewhat overloaded SAs with her, as her own moves doesn't have much to offer it would be balancing if she had really strong SAs.

 

[Dusty00]

I’ll start by saying Fire and Water variants need a big overhaul in general. Devs been making OP Dark and Light variants.

That said, the newer Fire gold variants (Annie and Para) from BP have been pretty decent. I agree with Stone that Fire’s typical buffs are boring with straight up dmg boost and offer very little utility.

Fire variants should have more access to Deadeye and Quietus from the newer buff/debuff. They should also be able to burn corpses to prevent revive/resurrection (never understood why Biting Cold can do that as a Water variant).

Anyway, on to the topic of reworking Heavy Handed.

Her Signature is tied to the Charge attack so we should keep that. It’s a very unique play style after all. When I grinded mine to lv60, I found it actually quite easy to spam her charge attack and she was a lot of fun.

Signature 1 - Gain 1 stack of permanent enrage when either player uses a charge attack. Gain permanent Unflinching at 5/4/3 stacks of enrage. Enrage stacks and Unflinching are removed when Heavy Handed is knocked down or tagged out.

Signature 2 - Inflict quietus and gain deadeye for 10/12/15 seconds every 7th combo hit landed while Heavy Handed has Unflinching. Opponents defeated by a charge attack will have their corpse burnt and cannot revive.

The new SA2 gives her utility to deal with strong defenders while she keeps her core enrage/unflinching trait in SA1 with a harder to trigger condition. She can access meter control via MA so this will be a fairly strong diamond. I’d use this version in rift and PR boss nodes to prevent revive.

 

[Aoskull]

I’ll start by saying Fire and Water variants need a big overhaul in general. Devs been making OP Dark and Light variants.

That said, the newer Fire gold variants (Annie and Para) from BP have been pretty decent. I agree with Stone that Fire’s typical buffs are boring with straight up dmg boost and offer very little utility.

Fire variants should have more access to Deadeye and Quietus from the newer buff/debuff. They should also be able to burn corpses to prevent revive/resurrection (never understood why Biting Cold can do that as a Water variant).

Anyway, on to the topic of reworking Heavy Handed.

Her Signature is tied to the Charge attack so we should keep that. It’s a very unique play style after all. When I grinded mine to lv60, I found it actually quite easy to spam her charge attack and she was a lot of fun.

Signature 1 - Gain 1 stack of permanent enrage when either player uses a charge attack. Gain permanent Unflinching at 5/4/3 stacks of enrage. Enrage stacks and Unflinching are removed when Heavy Handed is knocked down or tagged out.

Signature 2 - Inflict quietus and gain deadeye for 10/12/15 seconds every 7th combo hit landed while Heavy Handed has Unflinching. Opponents defeated by a charge attack will have their corpse burnt and cannot revive.

The new SA2 gives her utility to deal with strong defenders while she keeps her core enrage/unflinching trait in SA1 with a harder to trigger condition. She can access meter control via MA so this will be a fairly strong diamond. I’d use this version in rift and PR boss nodes to prevent revive.

Hmm… sorry, but I think "knocked down or tag out" is not a good idea. Unflinching’s weak point is that it will not activate against BB, outtake and deadeye. Therefore, once the buff is removed by these techniques, you will need to go through the process of activating the charge attack again and again like now! Especially, the fighter who has deadeye is gradually increasing, so her strength may fade over time.
How about changing “ENRAGE stacks and UNFLINCHING is removed when knocked down and tag out” to “One ENRAGE will removed when each fighter use BB” like Megalomaniac? Unlike Megalomaniac, she has strong BB meter reduce effect in her marquee, she can easily stack enrage to activate unflinching.

 

[Dusty00]

It’s on purpose that Fire variants are high risk high reward. That’s the theme! Think Risky Ginger and Indomitable Parasouls. We don’t need some OP variant that’s brain dead to use, but strong that rewards those with good controls and play skills. You can see Deny17 using indomitable to score very high in rift against Corrosive Element.

Also, think about buffs from supporting characters and modifiers. It’s pretty easy to gain enrage outside of one’s own kit and SA so I don’t think the 3 stack for unflinching is too difficult with the right team.

 

[Aoskull]

It’s on purpose that Fire variants are high risk high reward. That’s the theme! Think Risky Ginger and Indomitable Parasouls. We don’t need some OP variant that’s brain dead to use, but strong that rewards those with good controls and play skills. You can see Deny17 using indomitable to score very high in rift against Corrosive Element.

Also, think about buffs from supporting characters and modifiers. It’s pretty easy to gain enrage outside of one’s own kit and SA so I don’t think the 3 stack for unflinching is too difficult with the right team.

I see… However, Ginger isn't being used very often at the moment, so I'm little worried that Heavy Handed might end up with being same position with Ginger. Also, there are some low risk fire variants like Beast King, Harlequin, Mean One, Rose-tinted, Seraph Soldier etc, so I don't think devs is intentionally making the abilities of fire characters high risk high reward. But I understood your thinking. Thanks.

 

[Kheul]

Well, if we are brainstorming here is my concept:

SA1:

CHARGE ATTACKS bounce enemies off the wall (similar to Marie's Haymaker) and remove one DEBUFF from self. During CHARGE ATTACK you have UNFLINCHING and cannot suffer more than 25/20/15% HEALTH from a single HIT.

SA2:

UNFLINCHING grants ENRAGE AND PRECISION every 0.3/0.2/0.1 seconds. Each PRECISION hit deals UNHEALABLE DAMAGE and converts one ENRAGE to REGEN for 5 seconds.

 

[MDude]

#NerfHeavyHanded

 

[SvenZ]

I think keeping the unflinching only during the Charge Attack is fine, as it's there to make sure the charge attack hits and isn't interrupted. So changing it to trigger only after a successful hit, would be both a nerf and a buff.

Not sure how I feel about the rest of the changes. I both like and dislike them for various reasons. On one end, the Armor would make her more viable on defense, even if it's only 1 stack. On the other hand, does she really need it? Then we go to the Perma enrage. How long would it realistically take to reach 5 stacks of perma enrage and would that be balanced? Would it stack with the Enrage from SA1? Is there a trigger where she looses a charge? And, is damage even her main problem?

 

[Aoskull]

I think keeping the unflinching only during the Charge Attack is fine, as it's there to make sure the charge attack hits and isn't interrupted. So changing it to trigger only after a successful hit, would be both a nerf and a buff.

Not sure how I feel about the rest of the changes. I both like and dislike them for various reasons. On one end, the Armor would make her more viable on defense, even if it's only 1 stack. On the other hand, does she really need it? Then we go to the Perma enrage. How long would it realistically take to reach 5 stacks of perma enrage and would that be balanced? Would it stack with the Enrage from SA1? Is there a trigger where she looses a charge? And, is damage even her main problem?

I’ll answer your questions:

• Does she really need armor?
Currently, if she makes even the slightest mistake in her fighting, such as failing to attack an opponent after they have recovered from a knockdown and being attacked by BB, her pace will be thrown off in an instant. This is especially noticeable in high difficulty modes. This will act as insurance against such situations, and will also make it easier to force your way through in conjunction with the improved Unflinching.

• How long will it take to get 5 enrages?
During this month's 54-streak Prize Fight, it took 1 minute and 12 seconds to land 5 charge attacks with 5 enrages (Stun does not activated). But it depends on the player skill, stage modifier or opponent fighter, there may be a slight difference. There is also a strategy to not aiming full-scale, and I think the extent to which she scale will be really important in rift.

• Is perma enrage stackable with sig1?
Of course! Combined with the scaling effect, you can expect to be able to land charge attacks with even more powerful firepower than before, and making you also stronger in continuous fights.

• Is there a trigger to lose perma enrages?
No, enrages will remain forever and will not be erased until the match ends. Imo this is reasonable since it takes at least a minute to reach full-scale.

• Is damage a main problem?
Personally, I would like to see the adjustment that makes her “heavy tank” since she is “Heavy Handed”. So I made adjustments to increase the firepower and endurance while her charge attack-based strategy remains same.

 

[SvenZ]

• How long will it take to get 5 enrages?
During this month's 54-streak Prize Fight, it took 1 minute and 12 seconds to land 5 charge attacks with 5 enrages (Stun does not activated). But it depends on the player skill, stage modifier or opponent fighter, there may be a slight difference. There is also a strategy to not aiming full-scale, and I think the extent to which she scale will be really important in rift.

That's more than acceptable in that case. Not 100% sold on the Armor, but I'm warming up to the Perma Enrages

 

[Stone]

It's been a while since this wonderful discussion about Heavy Handed, but now I have a completely new suggestion for her!! I already posted HERE, but since it is a good chance to continue the discussion and make devs aware of it, I’ll also post it here!

Heavy Handed
Sig1 - Gain ENRAGE every 0.3/0/2/0.1 seconds while charging CHARGE ATTACK. All ENRAGE will converted into ARMOR for 3 seconds per 1 stack after next hit.

Sig2 - While having 5 stacks of ENRAGE, CHARGE ATTACK hit will grant 5/7/10 seconds of UNFLINCHING and 1 stack of permanent ENRAGE.
• Imo current Heavy Handed is the weakest diamond because of self enrage and unflinching removal. This makes her very unsuitable for continuous fight, which is really required in high difficulty mode.

• First, about enrage, It would be a really good adjustment to change removing effect to “convert”. With this change, she can gain armor after hitting charge attack with enrages. Armor duration is based on enrage stacks, means you can get 15 seconds of armor by hitting charge attack with 5 enrages! This will surely increase her durability, makes her no need to equip taunt (which I’m doing currently) and much easier to push through in combination with sig2 unflinching, which will be described later.

• This is the biggest change in her rework. With this rework, she will be able to use scaling effect by her sig2. She'll gain permanent Enrage every time hitting a charge attack with 5 enrages, allowing her to get stronger and stronger in fight while using current charge attack-based tactics! When reaching full-scaled, she will become unstoppable with incredible firepower and durability, which will shine in many situations.

• Also, about unflinching, it now activates when she HIT a charge attack at 5 enrages, not the moment it reaches 5. Unlike current ability, it doesn't disappear until the time limit, makes her post-hit action really easier.
It is expected that she will be able to fight in the style of a heavy tank, scaling with charge attacks and taking advantage of unflinching and armor to pushing through head on and takedown your opponent!!

Cool new idea!

I think the biggest issue is that at the end of the day, 5 enrages vs 10 enrages (after a minute of trying) makes way less of an impact damage wise than you make it out to be.

Going from 5 -> 10 is "just" a 50% increase, very comparable to a single death mark. Like before this really doesn't change any matchup she has.

Sure, with the armor she is slightly more safe when counter attacked, but that and unflinching doesnt make her safe against the counterplay of AI: using a blockbuster or special, and since she gains armor AFTER the charge attack it wont actually do anything most of the time (if you get hit, it would be before you release the charge (where you would tank the flinch with unflinching).

TL;DR: I think you need to really grant her something more than "just" enrage and (very dubious) way to tank a few hits without rewarding her for these tanked hits. I think the armor is definitely an idea you could expand upon, but keep in mind: this is a Bella that needs a lot to be considered good.

 

[MDude]

#NerfHeavyHanded