Fights Allowing multiples of the same special was a mistake

[moisterrific]

If special moves were capped like blockbusters, it would solve a lot of balancing issues as well as prevent future exploits.

 

[tom641]

I don't really mind it honestly. This isn't a game where I should worry about what other people are running unless it crashes my game like Hairball.

 

[missingno]

There are only two problem moves, MGR and GDO, and I would argue they're still busted even with a limit of 1.

 

[moisterrific]

I think Merry Go-rilla and George's Day Out are perfectly fine when you can equip no more than one of them. The brief moment of invincibility and unflinching makes Merry Go-rilla a very high skill move because if you time it right you can partially tank devastating attacks like Argus Agony. Likewise with George, using him at the right moment can completely absorb the massive amount of damage from Cerebella's diamond/rock throwing BB2.

If these moves receive significant nerfs then that basically takes the fun out of them and overall makes Cerebella and Peacock less enjoyable to play.

These moves and some others only become a problem when multiples are equipped and this can be especially annoying to play against in Prize Fights.

 

[Liam]

It would solve a lot of balancing issues as well as prevent future exploits.

and some others only become a problem when multiples are equipped and this can be especially annoying to play against in Prize Fights.

Thanks for the feedback, but this is rather vague and there's only two examples.
(One of them being GDO, which we've had eyes on for awhile.)
I'd appreciate if you could go further into detail why you think move stacking should be completely removed.

If certain Move lineups are too powerful such as multiple GDO's, I personally think it would be better to look at those specific cases to see if something could be adjusted to bring them in line with other strategies.

If you axe the entire mechanic, that means users have less to play with!

 

[BambooEarpick]

So far, the general consensus is that the three most problematic Special Moves are GDO, MGR, and Cymbal Clash.

GDO is both high damage and a combo extender.

MGR is high damage, a combo extender, invincible, unflinching, and unblockable.

Cymbal Clash is moderately-high damage with an extremely high stun rate. 50% on 3 hits = 87.5% chance to stun. Take this move in comparison to Valentine's Vial C. Vial C requires prep, does 0 damage, and has a base 25% chance to stun. Some solutions to the high rate of stun on Cymbal Clash I've heard are to have it only have a chance to proc stun on the final hit at a 50% rate or reduce the proc rate to around 21% to make it have an aggregate chance of around 50%.

 

[missingno]

The brief moment of invincibility and unflinching makes Merry Go-rilla a very high skill move because if you time it right you can partially tank devastating attacks like Argus Agony.

MGR shouldn't be invincible or armored in the first place, it never was in the original game. I'm pretty sure that's a glitch considering that you can hear Bella get hit and see damage numbers pop up, but then health doesn't change.

Meanwhile specials that were previously invincible or armored like Upper Khat or Lock n Load aren't in SGM, the fact that all other moves aren't is why I can't imagine MGR was intentional - why take it away from everything else but then give it to MGR? I figured it must've been a deliberate design choice to just never have invincibility or armor on specials, though I'm not really sure why they did that. Maybe it's meant to contrast with the fact that all supers are invincible... but that's another thing I don't really get.

I'm absolutely in favor of having invincible/armored specials, but only on moves that are actually supposed to have this. Something as slow and unsafe as Lock n Load needs armor to make it at all usable. But a fast command grab sure as hell does not, especially when command grabs are already massively buffed by virtue of SGM not having jumping.

Likewise with George, using him at the right moment can completely absorb the massive amount of damage from Cerebella's diamond/rock throwing BB2.

Wait, Diamonds are Forever can be nullified by other projectiles? That's also a thing that's explicitly not supposed to happen in the original game, it normally goes through all other projectiles. Either way though, that's not the part anyone's looking to nerf.
I can look the other way on this one, supers in general are centralizingly strong in this game so anything that takes 'em down a peg is for the best.

These moves and some others only become a problem when multiples are equipped and this can be especially annoying to play against in Prize Fights.

MGR is an issue because jumping does not exist in this game, and there is no other way to avoid command grabs. It's like playing a game of Rock-Paper. This has nothing to do with how many you have equipped, so why would that be the part that needs nerfing rather than the actual root cause of the problems?

GDO is an issue because it does an absolutely insane amount of damage, and can be looped. While removing the ability to equip multiple would fix the loop, it would not fix the damage. Even one GDO in a combo is still fatal enough. And if you want to fix the loop, just do that directly.
Also I just don't like that Mobile GDO practically serves the exact opposite of its purpose in the original game. It went from being a zoning and harassment tool that's good because of how long it lingers onscreen to something you only ever use when the opponent is right in your face so you get the damage right now. But that goes back to the fact that there's really no zoning at all in SGM, which is a whole new can of worms for another day.

Cymbals are an issue because stun is a bad mechanic.

 

[moisterrific]

Multiples of the same special was not a problem before Prize Fights, so I believe a better solution is to have a fight restriction in place in PF only where players are not allowed to enter if they've equipped more than one of the same special.

 

[missingno]

Having to switch your builds back and forth for different game modes would be incredibly annoying.

 

[moisterrific]

Having to switch your builds back and forth for different game modes would be incredibly annoying.

It would be nice if there was a way to save like 3 different loadouts.

 

[Saint2th]

If there were nerfs to the three specials, then having multiple of the same special will be balanced.

MGR: Invincible, unblockable (which is fine since command grab), unflinching, very high damage as GDO, combos into itself after a jab, can be used to restand opponents even after OTG, generally safe to do after a blocked jab combo due to its speed and command grab ability, combos into pummel horse which causes stagger which combos into a full ground combo which combos into MGR once again, absorbs damage.

GDO: Very high damage (which would be fine if it didn't have it's fast start up), has an infinite, combos into literally anything with a hitbox, is unavoidable without SM or BB (or fly / hole idea) since no jumping, can stop other projectiles completely and negate damage.

Cymbal Clash: Very high damage with a 87.5% chance to stun long enough for someone to perform a FULL combo AND cymbal clash once again. Wtf? Not to mention it's safe on both hit and block (with distance), and can potentially one hit characters like painwheel.

...come on
there are specials that do a fraction of a damage all of these moves do with less versatility and usually that's fine right? Some specials are supposed to be better than others, it's okay.

However, I don't think any special should have significant properties that completely outbalance the game and can allow players to beat enemies with significantly higher FS in two hits. I can 2 hit a 8000 Egrets with a 2000 peashooter, and one combo a 9000 Big Band with a 2500 Harlequin. lol

 

[Poringsmasher]

One thing I'll say for MGR is that the AI can activate it on match start which the player can not since the specials aren't shown right away. It may only be a second, but it's still annoying especially when fighting a 2x+ Cerebella and there goes a chunk of health unless you're using a character fast enough to back dash out of it at the start.

 

[Black Egret#13]

What if having two of a special on a character at the same time makes the second one do less damage? And having a third, fourth, fifth, etc, would make the third, fourth, and fifth, etc do less damage, going to no damage on the fifth?

 

[missingno]

 

[brassknux]

What if having two of a special on a character at the same time makes the second one do less damage? And having a third, fourth, fifth, etc, would make the third, fourth, and fifth, etc do less damage, going to no damage on the fifth?

Sounds pretty good!
But what if instead of just damage penalties, it's different penalties depending on what skill you're using?
(e.g 1st Cymbal Clash gets full 50% stun chance, then 2nd Cymbal Clash gets less than 50%, 40% maybe? Then it goes on.)
Then again, that makes it as if you only wasted 3 or 2 of your move slots on almost nothing.

 

[tom641]

Yeaaaaah I don't know who determines these damage ratings. I wasn't using Brass Knuckles for the longest time because I thought it'd do crap damage. Noooope it's basically Big Band's GDO, minus the possible combo extension.

 

[ThanatosDK]

One thing I'll say for MGR is that the AI can activate it on match start which the player can not since the specials aren't shown right away. It may only be a second, but it's still annoying especially when fighting a 2x+ Cerebella and there goes a chunk of health unless you're using a character fast enough to back dash out of it at the start.

Theres a player running a cerebella with 5 MGRs. It's annoying as hell to space properly when blocking gives them a guaranteed grab and they have a higher chance to throw out MGR on the first frame of each match. You can't even get out an MgR first frame since mashing the spot where the button is out will start a tap combo.

 

[Cellsai]

Theres a player running a cerebella with 5 MGRs.

Haha. Yeah, I've fought "Zaid" a bunch of times. Loads of fun that one ¬_¬

Ridiculous cases like this are why I'd like to see a limit of some kind in place. Not "one per character", but like, 2-3 or something, or give specific moves like unblockable grabs some restrictions.

 

[missingno]

The problem there has nothing to do with how many MGRs you equip, even one is an unavoidable roundstart. Command grabs just need a rework, without jumping there needs to be some other way to avoid it.

 

[Veracroz]

My team is just annoying, that’s the point so low players can’t farm it like hell, but if you have 1 gold char, my team is just easy, yeah it has 5 mgr, but it has no defense, no attack all of the mgr are lvl 1, and overall the harley with 5 mgr, is easier than an armed forces