Other Major Issues with the Game, Imo

[MedK]

Alright so, I've been meaning to write this since June 17 morning, but the forum was down. Oops.

I'm speaking for myself mostly, but I'm sure lots of others will be able to relate to this. TL;DR at the bottom.

This will be organized in "Major changes" and "minor changes" (or nitpicks). I'll be talking about Blockbusters, BB3s and throw breaks. Although Rift Battles, Ms. Fortune's BB3 (specifically) and special move leveling system need severe changes, I have no ideas on how to fix them, so...

1 - Blockbusters
Basically, my prime problem with all blockbusters is that if the opponent gets ONE frame of 'freedom', they can activate their blockbuster and immediately end with whatever thing the opponent was doing; it's basically a 'get out of jail' free card. Sometimes, an input may drop, not get counted, lag, etc. Dying due to one frame seems very unfair to be honest.

I'd fix it by giving, on blockbusters, 3 (assuming the game is 60FPS) frames of vulnerability before invincibleness kicks in. Very simple, fixes lots of stuff.

2 - Throw Breaks
Major issues
Essentially, throw breaks' windows are extremely lenient. Throw breaks are usually doable when you read that the opponent will use a throw, and immediately get ready to do it. You shouldn't have enough time to be surprised by the opponent's throw, command your fingers to throw break, and actually throw break; that should be way too slow.

Now, you may ask: "Why?" And I reply: In order to make the game more fair to skilled players; as in, it might not be very important currently, when PvP is not yet a thing, but it'll surely be a big thing once it does, because one could surprise their opponent by throwing them, and they'd theoretically be able to get surprised, react to it, and, after the throw break, BB3 the first player. That doesn't sound very nice.

Nitpicks
Whenever I throw break someone, I, in fear of my inputs not working, input it quickly, twice. Almost all times, this means I'll throw break, and then throw them again. If I stop pressing twice, it might not work, and I'd die. So, could y'all make it so buffering a throw out of a throw break is impossible, or at least give it a minor delay? Please?

3 - BB3s
Major changes
Hoo boy. Alright, so. BB3s legit make the game unplayable sometimes, they're so unfair that currently, the only way to tone them down is to make the AI dumb. That doesn't seem very good; just think about when PvPs are a thing.

BB3s generally make the match run on a timer (shorter than the one you see at the top of your screen) because:
. *One gets more BB meter when getting hit, than when getting hurt.
. *They're unblockable, and have infinite range.
. *They're basically an instant KO.

We must take a look at this, because, each one of them, when alone, are perfectly fine. But not all of the three. So to fix this, I'd like if:

. *BB meter when getting hit is equal to the one when getting hurt.
This should make everything more fair; that would also motivate people to use bursts, in order to stop their combo, instead of blockbusters (because they'd, theoretically, be changed, as said above).

. *Actually, keep them unblockable. That's fine.
Now you might ask: "What!? That's unfair!"

And I reply: Yeah, because we could nerf their range instead. I think that 'slightly farther than Parasoul's backdash' would be a good range. Keep their speed. I'll elaborate on the minor stuff (such as Squigly's BB3) on the minor changes section.

Minor changes
You know, during a BB3 wait animation, people's buff/debuff timers, as well as SAs and modifiers, keep running. How about we tweak that? You see, the previous "getting hit meter > hitting meter" was there for a reason. Since we'd like to help the person that is losing, what if:
. *The BB3 activator's buffs keep running (albeit half the speed), but debuffs are frozen.
. *For the BB3 target, the opposite happens. DOOM may or may not get exempt from this.


Also, y'know how there is a time between the moment the BB3 cutscene ends, and the moment the move actually hits? What if the opponent could actually move between that time? The BB3 player is intangible (moves will miss) after the first 3 frames, but maybe they could attempt to dodge it somehow? That would also motivate players to do it closer and/or combo into BB3s, instead of just activating it whenever possible. Just some food for thought.

Remember when I said I would elaborating on Squigly's BB3? So, one might thing that the change could make Squigly's BB3 bad, because it pretty much always triggers the opponent's SAs. Since it's so, hmm, different, how about we give it an increased range? Maybe still not full screen, but still...

TL;DR:
Add 3 frames of vulnerability to the start of all BBs (assuming the game is at 60FPS).
Reduce throw break window.
Make BB3s not have infinite range and reduce meter-when-hit to match meter-when-hitting. Read BB3s' minor changes for more; they're too specific for a TL;DR.

 

[Fel]

Some valid points but there are explanations for most of these.

1. Why are blockbusters invincible on frame 1?

First off, some specials do this as well. These are known as reversals. Using these on wakeup will prevent enemies from attacking you first. Some attacks come out in less than 3 frames which means your 3 frames of vulnerability could be punished by some moves. This could lead to situations where countering with blockbusters is impossible even when the enemy doesn't have a true combo.
The lag issue is a shame but you can buffer your moves in SGM so it's not that common. If you make a mistake and you attack into a block, you can block all BB3s provided you were using a safe move (generally dash, l1 and l2).

2. Throw breaks

While a valid point for PvP, that won't be an issue until PvP.
Lag can also make short throwbreak windows an issue.
As for the throwbreak buffering throw problem, I've never had it myself so I can't really comment. I usually just throwbreak then block or input a BB.

3. BB3s
We've had this conversation since the beginning of the game. By making them have a loose rule of "only used when attacks are blocked" (though there are some exceptions) they're effectively able to be countered. AI needs this to have a chance to defeat players.
Before, when AI would use it instantly when it was up, it posed a problem because players could do very little to avoid it on all characters and it wasn't a feature you could interact with. With the current BB3 logic I think we're at a pretty fair point.
They don't make the game unplayable, they give another layer of strategy to the game. The fact that you emphasize PvP just shows that it's not as big of an issue currently.
Yes BB3s will be an issue in PvP, but that's not out yet and we don't know how they'll be switching things up for PvP. It's not a current issue.
Getting more meter when being hit means the enemy gets more resources while being at a disadvantage. It's a way to make the game less one sided and I personally see no problems with it, even in combination with the other points.

Things that may become an issue in PvP isn't something you can use to represent an issue with the current game against AI. I think it would be better to focus your future posts to potential issue with PvP in the future or current issues with the game vs AI. I agree with the things you've said would be a problem in PvP mostly.

 

[MedK]

1. BBs
I... actually didn't know some moves came out sooner than frame 3. Hmm.
But wouldn't the opponent need to have an amazing reaction time in order to punish properly? I mean, they'd have one frame to react, at max. If they take two frames for example, even though they'd hit the opponent, they'd still get hit.

You're correct about the safe moves, but what if the input drops down between a L4 and a L5? If I hit their block, I can't do anything.

3. BB3s
"They don't make the game unplayable, they give another layer of strategy to the game"
You see, if they activate their BB3s 'loosely' when their attacks are blocked, my point still stands; the match will run on a timer. I'll have to block a move of theirs sooner or later, nothing I can do about that, specially if my opponent is stronger than me or if there's some type of modifier at play. In most cases, both situations are happening, at the same time.

"Things that may become an issue in PvP isn't something you can use to represent an issue with the current game against AI"
I actually disagree, heavily. If we make PvP-specific changes (as in, outside of PvP, it remains like it was previously), then we'd have two completely different metas, and the game could be way too complex.

By taking notes of what could potentially be an issue when PvP becomes a thing and changing it before PvP arrives, players would have more time to adapt, making PvP's initial days overall more fun, imo. "Better safe than sorry", they say.

 

[Fel]

1. BBs
I... actually didn't know some moves came out sooner than frame 3. Hmm.
But wouldn't the opponent need to have an amazing reaction time in order to punish properly? I mean, they'd have one frame to react, at max. If they take two frames for example, even though they'd hit the opponent, they'd still get hit.

You're correct about the safe moves, but what if the input drops down between a L4 and a L5? If I hit their block, I can't do anything.

3. BB3s
"They don't make the game unplayable, they give another layer of strategy to the game"
You see, if they activate their BB3s 'loosely' when their attacks are blocked, my point still stands; the match will run on a timer. I'll have to block a move of theirs sooner or later, nothing I can do about that, specially if my opponent is stronger than me or if there's some type of modifier at play. In most cases, both situations are happening, at the same time.

"Things that may become an issue in PvP isn't something you can use to represent an issue with the current game against AI"
I actually disagree, heavily. If we make PvP-specific changes (as in, outside of PvP, it remains like it was previously), then we'd have two completely different metas, and the game could be way too complex.

By taking notes of what could potentially be an issue when PvP becomes a thing and changing it before PvP arrives, players would have more time to adapt, making PvP's initial days overall more fun, imo. "Better safe than sorry", they say.

1. This could apply to any situation where you pause after an Lx attack and reset with an L1 or Lx+1. Basically leads to more infinites.
Again the lag issue is unfortunate but I haven't had it happen to me so I can't relate. If it's widespread enough that a lot of people have issue with it, then I can see changes being warranted.

2. BB3s. You can learn to intercept and bait AI into doing punishable attacks. You can use reversals to start combos. I can only see AI becoming too weak with the changes you've proposed.

3. I believe it's impossible to balance the game between AI and PvP.
The changes you've proposed would make AI battles a joke, and they're the main way the game is played.

I personally think it wouldn't be too complicated to have two different rulesets for PvP and AI. There are many games with different tier lists for PvP, PvE and Raids, and I've never found any of them to be too complex for me to follow.
This is a personal thing though so I understand that you might have different opinions.

Depending on how much emphasis is put on PvP the game could be balanced around it but that would cause way too many issues for the other game modes imo.
Again, I don't think any of those poinys should be considered to be major issues pre-emptively until we get a better idea of what PvP will be like.