Other Rift matchmaking based on power level is backfiring in upper ranks

[Yujipooji]

what’s happening is if your base is stronger, you’ll have a harder time climbing because your matchups are harder. if you have a slightly weaker base composition, you’ll have an easier climb as long as your catalysts are good enough. what’s happening is the matchups are punishing players for being strong instead of rewarding them. oddlegend posted a video of him rifting with a gold 3 with a really strong base. this same player was also paired with a diamond 2. what happens is his power level is at least diamond, but he can’t get out of gold because of his matchups.

rift matchmaking should be based only on rift rating, at least in higher ranks. top rankings are sort of screwed up because if the power level of your base is significantly weaker than the top players, you can go on long winstreaks and climb to the top of the rankings without ever meeting the strongest players.

 

[Dusty00]

what’s happening is if your base is stronger, you’ll have a harder time climbing because your matchups are harder. if you have a slightly weaker base composition, you’ll have an easier climb as long as your catalysts are good enough. what’s happening is the matchups are punishing players for being strong instead of rewarding them. oddlegend posted a video of him rifting with a gold 3 with a really strong base. this same player was also paired with a diamond 2. what happens is his power level is at least diamond, but he can’t get out of gold because of his matchups.

rift matchmaking should be based only on rift rating, at least in higher ranks. top rankings are sort of screwed up because if the power level of your base is significantly weaker than the top players, you can go on long winstreaks and climb to the top of the rankings without ever meeting the strongest players.

That was the case for me the first 2 weeks (13/14 and 12/14 wins) since I have a much weaker roster compared to other Top 20 players. Before 3.2, I only get matched with the same handful of players with rating over 2000. Since the update, I have enjoyed playing against D3 and D4 players in the 1900s with stronger base, better upgraded moves, and more or less the same catalysts. It all comes down to Player Skills when you are above D2 in my opinion.

I don't think catalysts will be a factor now as most Diamond tier players have had the chance to buy them since 3.2 release. It's funny how most D1 vs D1 matches I've played are all down to leaving the boss node alone (unbeatable) and it's down performance of points with the rest of the nodes.

PS - How is Oddlegend in Gold 3? I swear he was D1 and definitely has what it takes to stay there unless he's been on hiatus and decay brought him down that much.

 

[Yujipooji]

That was the case for me the first 2 weeks (13/14 and 12/14 wins) since I have a much weaker roster compared to other Top 20 players. Before 3.2, I only get matched with the same handful of players with rating over 2000. Since the update, I have enjoyed playing against D3 and D4 players in the 1900s with stronger base, better upgraded moves, and more or less the same catalysts. It all comes down to Player Skills when you are above D2 in my opinion.

I don't think catalysts will be a factor now as most Diamond tier players have had the chance to buy them since 3.2 release. It's funny how most D1 vs D1 matches I've played are all down to leaving the boss node alone (unbeatable) and it's down performance of points with the rest of the nodes.

PS - How is Oddlegend in Gold 3? I swear he was D1 and definitely has what it takes to stay there unless he's been on hiatus and decay brought him down that much.

not sure if i phrased it correctly. odd legend is d1, who was matched with a gold3 with strong units. this same gold3 was matched with a d2. again, it’s sort of unfair for a gold3 to have a much more difficult climb than others with a similar rating just because he’s stronger.

last week, more than half my matches were with the top 10. it came to the point where my rating fell below 2k, but i was still being matched with them. meanwhile there are people who i know i can beat with over 2100 points.

this week, i get gamma and i also get this week’s legend kul. if you know eisdisi, a very good rifter, his current rating is below 2k, but because his base is stacked, he gets matched with me twice in a row, even if i’m almost a hundred points ahead of him.

my point is this.. stronger players should be at an advantage when climbing, not the other way around. when the dust settles, the top spots should belong to the strongest, not to the ones with the longest string of easy matchups. ‍

 

[Dusty00]

my point is this.. stronger players should be at an advantage when climbing, not the other way around. when the dust settles, the top spots should belong to the strongest, not to the ones with the longest string of easy matchups. ‍

Thanks for clarifying the situation with Oddlegend. That makes sense now how someone in Gold 3 isn’t able to climb.

Agreed that the top spots shouldn’t be for someone with best luck matching up with weaker players.

Then again, unless everyone has the same condition (same characters, same moves, same catalysts like Chess), there is no way for the system to truly be “fair” and allow “better” players to be at the top. We also just need A LOT more players with Diamond-tier conditions for a more diverse match making.

I’ve said it a couple of times in other threads - the game would me healthier if we could have a rotation of different rift modes. One week where we use our own collection, and another week where the game supplies everyone with the same set of characters, moves, and catalysts. This would allow weaker/newer players to compete and catch up on their collection while still allowing veteran players enjoy their collection another week.

 

[Yujipooji]

Thanks for clarifying the situation with Oddlegend. That makes sense now how someone in Gold 3 isn’t able to climb.

Agreed that the top spots shouldn’t be for someone with best luck matching up with weaker players.

Then again, unless everyone has the same condition (same characters, same moves, same catalysts like Chess), there is no way for the system to truly be “fair” and allow “better” players to be at the top. We also just need A LOT more players with Diamond-tier conditions for a more diverse match making.

I’ve said it a couple of times in other threads - the game would me healthier if we could have a rotation of different rift modes. One week where we use our own collection, and another week where the game supplies everyone with the same set of characters, moves, and catalysts. This would allow weaker/newer players to compete and catch up on their collection while still allowing veteran players enjoy their collection another week.

pretty creative, sounds fun! tho that will be a longer fix, it’ll take time to set that kind of thing up.

i think for now, matchmaking by rift rating would be a quick fix to the weird rankings near the top.

 

[Dusty00]

pretty creative, sounds fun! tho that will be a longer fix, it’ll take time to set that kind of thing up.

i think for now, matchmaking by rift rating would be a quick fix to the weird rankings near the top.

Another longer fix would be to make rift an asynchronous system, meaning that both players don’t have to be online to get matched. I remember getting matched against HeGunz every day at the same time and just had to play a different time because I could never beat him haha.

I can’t remember who suggested it but the idea is to lock your map until both players are done. It gives the game a much longer period of time to match rather than that small window of 5 minutes. Your timer doesn’t start until you hit Begin (within 12 or 24 hours), and you will have to wait for the other player to be finished.

They can make it so you can queue up 2 parallel maps, or limit to just 1 rift match per day. I personally wouldn’t mind playing less rift.. 2 per day is just way too time consuming for the average player!

 

[Yujipooji]

Another longer fix would be to make rift an asynchronous system, meaning that both players don’t have to be online to get matched. I remember getting matched against HeGunz every day at the same time and just had to play a different time because I could never beat him haha.

I can’t remember who suggested it but the idea is to lock your map until both players are done. It gives the game a much longer period of time to match rather than that small window of 5 minutes. Your timer doesn’t start until you hit Begin (within 12 or 24 hours), and you will have to wait for the other player to be finished.

They can make it so you can queue up 2 parallel maps, or limit to just 1 rift match per day. I personally wouldn’t mind playing less rift.. 2 per day is just way too time consuming for the average player!

that sounds awesome. devs please!!

 

[xcapibara]

not sure if i phrased it correctly. odd legend is d1, who was matched with a gold3 with strong units. this same gold3 was matched with a d2. again, it’s sort of unfair for a gold3 to have a much more difficult climb than others with a similar rating just because he’s stronger.

Ok, i get the general idea of your thread but isn’t this part of your post a bit confusing? I mean, if a player has the collection strength to merit being matched with other players way above his rating
then where’s the unfairness? Should that person be matched against other golds while having such a stronger collection and rift base wouldn’t that be unfair to those other golds? And besides, if he wins against higher ratings he gets way more points than against similar ratings, reverse the same for losing.

 

[Yujipooji]

Ok, i get the general idea of your thread but isn’t this part of your post a bit confusing? I mean, if a player has the collection strength to merit being matched with other players way above his rating
then where’s the unfairness? Should that person be matched against other golds while having such a stronger collection and rift base wouldn’t that be unfair to those other golds? And besides, if he wins against higher ratings he gets way more points than against similar ratings, reverse the same for losing.

short answer, yes. he is in gold so he should be matched with golds. he’ll most likely win a lot that week, move up to diamond, then get matched with diamonds. those golds he beat will never see him again unless they climb too. that’s how climbing is supposed to work.

also, i’m sure you’ve experienced being matched with +20 -10 type rifts. unless they afk, your chances of winning those fair and square are slim. i’d never use the possibility of winning an unfavorable mismatch as a reason to keep things the way they are.

the whole point of the post is, everyone should have the same level of competition as they climb when their ratings are similar. no one should be able to dodge players of similar ratings just because one is better than the other.

 

[xcapibara]

short answer, yes. he is in gold so he should be matched with golds. he’ll most likely win a lot that week, move up to diamond, then get matched with diamonds. those golds he beat will never see him again unless they climb too. that’s how climbing is supposed to work.

Ah! I get your point now, yes you’re right, thats climbing that makes sense. But going back to only rating... wouldn’t that bring back all those troubles in the matchmaking the factoring of collection strength were getting rid off?

 

[Yujipooji]

Ah! I get your point now, yes you’re right, thats climbing that makes sense. But going back to only rating... wouldn’t that bring back all those troubles in the matchmaking the factoring of collection strength were getting rid off?

i think the mismatching problem was not a problem to begin with. it’s more a result of people starting rift way later than others. if we let it run its course, these “late bloomers” will climb fast and power levels will normalize. that’s the idea at least. i am confident that this “evening out” process will definitely happen in the top 200 player range, but i’m not exactly sure how it consistently it would apply to ranks lower than maybe gold 3.. that’s actually why my title sort of specified high ranks. one fix i can think of is that the power level difference could maybe affect the +/- point ratio instead of making weaker players outright dodge stronger players of the same rift rating.

 

[xcapibara]

i think the mismatching problem was not a problem to begin with. it’s more a result of people starting rift way later than others. if we let it run its course, these “late bloomers” will climb fast and power levels will normalize. that’s the idea at least. i am confident that this “evening out” process will definitely happen in the top 200 player range, but i’m not exactly sure how it consistently it would apply to ranks lower than maybe gold 3.. that’s actually why my title sort of specified high ranks. one fix i can think of is that the power level difference could maybe affect the +/- point ratio instead of making weaker players outright dodge stronger players of the same rift rating.

Absolutely, the +/- point ratio has to be factored when matching by collection strength: not fun to face an equally or even stronger opponent base with lower rating to win a pittance of points or lose a large amount of them.

I don’t know about the normalization when there were de-rankers.

 

[Luke]

I can’t remember who suggested it but the idea is to lock your map until both players are done. It gives the game a much longer period of time to match rather than that small window of 5 minutes. Your timer doesn’t start until you hit Begin (within 12 or 24 hours), and you will have to wait for the other player to be finished.

perhaps you meant this post?
https://forum.skullgirlsmobile.com/threads/rift-battle-general-discussion.4818/page-10#post-25395

 

[Brother Null]

I have to agree 100% with this post.

So I have been writing a series of articles titled "Getting to Diamond", in which I describe the process of improving your team and Rift map for the final push into the very highest levels of the game. I haven't posted in a while. Really, since the upgrade to 3.2.

Why did I pause? Because I would have to post the following article: "Getting to Diamond: I Have No Idea." I am a Gold 1 now. First time since Rift began that I have ever missed the cut.

So, am I a terrible player? Well, maybe. We have to consider that possibility. We also have to consider the possibility that the structural changes to Rifts have had some unintended consequences. Here is what I have found, after four weeks of flailing around in Rifts.

1) I know that I am not the best technical fighter in the game.

I *know* this, but Rift Battles have been a source of sublime pleasure for me, even as I get my hat handed to me. You see, by knowing my limitations as a technical fighter, I could compensate by building a powerful team that would assert a dominant presence over the match. I had most every power variant at diamond, and I had a wide base of defenders at diamond to make the battle difficult.

That's no longer an advantage. I am matched with people of "similar team strength", so I no longer get to assert this power. All my planning has backfired.

2) Catalysts are of outsize importance when team strength trends towards the mean.

I can't emphasize this point enough. With team strength acting as a secret tier (fight only those players who have a team value similar to yours, and *don't ask* how that number is calculated), your defensive team is no longer your strongest advantage. The most effective component to a Rift match becomes the defensive catalysts. They are a good to great idea in a vacuum, but with this secret tier system in place they become the most accurate forecast to the outcome of the match. I ran into a player with *seven* Armor Ratings in their defensive map. It wasn't even a contest.

3) Skill is important, but there is nowhere to practice.

Rift Battles are insane. The AI manages feats of timing that frankly feel like wizardry. I would be okay with this level of trickery if it were found anywhere else in the game. It isn't. Rift Battles are at a skill level that is never seen elsewhere in the game, so the only way to learn the patterns of play is to play.

These three effects have caused me to lose my grip on the top of the pig-pile that is the diamond tier. I do not get to pair up with teams that I know I can beat, even as I see them ascend into Diamond tier themselves. (I mean no ill will, many of these people are my friends) I would *love* to match up with them, but I cannot because I have a secret tier that pushes me to fight only the very biggest teams. I have poor catalysts, even after buying three bundles. I have struggled to keep my emotions positive as I lose six out of seven matches on a weekly basis, and so I do not get in any more practice.

Rift Battles may be great for Silver and Gold, but as a former Diamond let me say this: I am not playing Rifts again until something is done.

Remove the secret tier system of "team strength". It is awful and backwards. (If you don't agree, then explain a numerical measure for team strength that factors in every component to a Rift Battle). Replace it with something a little more thoughtful, like the above proposal or even a short-hand variation that does not reduce the complexity of an interdependent team to a single numerical value.

My own idea: have the second tier system be a single calculation: (wins - losses). If you are +2, then you get paired with other +2s in the same neighborhood as your score. If you are -2, then you get paired with other -2s. This system, while not perfect, does let those with no luck find one another for a better chance at victory, and it pushes the winners into direct competition. You can still have "a bad week" but you are far less likely to have a relentless losing streak, and the eventual winner of Rifts will have earned it from fighting the best.

I love catalysts as a rule, but they need to be tuned. There are some obvious winners and losers in the catalyst game, and if you want a good list of all the bad catalysts just take a look at my inventory.

It would be nice to turn on a Rift-style AI for practice. I need a chance to fight at this level without feeling the anxiety of perfect play.

Of all these possible fixes, removal of the "team strength" tier is the most important. It has sucked all the joy from the game for me.

 

[educavalcantee]

I have to agree 100% with this post.

So I have been writing a series of articles titled "Getting to Diamond", in which I describe the process of improving your team and Rift map for the final push into the very highest levels of the game. I haven't posted in a while. Really, since the upgrade to 3.2.

Why did I pause? Because I would have to post the following article: "Getting to Diamond: I Have No Idea." I am a Gold 1 now. First time since Rift began that I have ever missed the cut.

So, am I a terrible player? Well, maybe. We have to consider that possibility. We also have to consider the possibility that the structural changes to Rifts have had some unintended consequences. Here is what I have found, after four weeks of flailing around in Rifts.

1) I know that I am not the best technical fighter in the game.

I *know* this, but Rift Battles have been a source of sublime pleasure for me, even as I get my hat handed to me. You see, by knowing my limitations as a technical fighter, I could compensate by building a powerful team that would assert a dominant presence over the match. I had most every power variant at diamond, and I had a wide base of defenders at diamond to make the battle difficult.

That's no longer an advantage. I am matched with people of "similar team strength", so I no longer get to assert this power. All my planning has backfired.

2) Catalysts are of outsize importance when team strength trends towards the mean.

I can't emphasize this point enough. With team strength acting as a secret tier (fight only those players who have a team value similar to yours, and *don't ask* how that number is calculated), your defensive team is no longer your strongest advantage. The most effective component to a Rift match becomes the defensive catalysts. They are a good to great idea in a vacuum, but with this secret tier system in place they become the most accurate forecast to the outcome of the match. I ran into a player with *seven* Armor Ratings in their defensive map. It wasn't even a contest.

3) Skill is important, but there is nowhere to practice.

Rift Battles are insane. The AI manages feats of timing that frankly feel like wizardry. I would be okay with this level of trickery if it were found anywhere else in the game. It isn't. Rift Battles are at a skill level that is never seen elsewhere in the game, so the only way to learn the patterns of play is to play.

These three effects have caused me to lose my grip on the top of the pig-pile that is the diamond tier. I do not get to pair up with teams that I know I can beat, even as I see them ascend into Diamond tier themselves. (I mean no ill will, many of these people are my friends) I would *love* to match up with them, but I cannot because I have a secret tier that pushes me to fight only the very biggest teams. I have poor catalysts, even after buying three bundles. I have struggled to keep my emotions positive as I lose six out of seven matches on a weekly basis, and so I do not get in any more practice.

Rift Battles may be great for Silver and Gold, but as a former Diamond let me say this: I am not playing Rifts again until something is done.

Remove the secret tier system of "team strength". It is awful and backwards. (If you don't agree, then explain a numerical measure for team strength that factors in every component to a Rift Battle). Replace it with something a little more thoughtful, like the above proposal or even a short-hand variation that does not reduce the complexity of an interdependent team to a single numerical value.

My own idea: have the second tier system be a single calculation: (wins - losses). If you are +2, then you get paired with other +2s in the same neighborhood as your score. If you are -2, then you get paired with other -2s. This system, while not perfect, does let those with no luck find one another for a better chance at victory, and it pushes the winners into direct competition. You can still have "a bad week" but you are far less likely to have a relentless losing streak, and the eventual winner of Rifts will have earned it from fighting the best.

I love catalysts as a rule, but they need to be tuned. There are some obvious winners and losers in the catalyst game, and if you want a good list of all the bad catalysts just take a look at my inventory.

It would be nice to turn on a Rift-style AI for practice. I need a chance to fight at this level without feeling the anxiety of perfect play.

Of all these possible fixes, removal of the "team strength" tier is the most important. It has sucked all the joy from the game for me.

Oh man, I was eagerly waiting for one more chapter of "Getting to Diamond".

 

[Brother Null]

The very moment I can bear playing Rifts again, I will prepare another article. I have faith that the devs do not want to alienate their most dedicated players, and just knowing that there is an issue will be sufficient impetus to enact change.

 

[Brother Null]

One can even keep "Team Strength" as a factor, but only assert team strength for matches below your rank.

I would be OK if I could only fight the biggest Gold 2 teams, but there is simply no reason I should not be able to match up against a D3 with a weak team strength. If they are above me in rank, they should be fair game.

 

[Dusty00]

I still believe the core of matchmaking problem is the combination of a small player base (only 1300ish people bothered getting to last milestone reward for Sunday’s Medici PF) and the game trying to match you against someone in a 5 minute window. I know I will never get matched against someone from a different continent.

Team strength is really not an accurate measure. Having the right characters, the right setup, and strong player skills will almost always make you the winner over someone with a team of stronger team strength. Sure it’s easier if you also have lv60 characters with all lv15 moves, but the same rift map can be cleared with lv45 characters with lv7ish moves when played right. This is why you have D4s with a scary roster and D1s with not so impressive roster.

 

[FriendlyWolf]

I have been having the opposite of the problem from what I've seen. I'm in diamond 3 (which is apparently 1970+) and only have 13 diamonds in my base (all lvl 50 and below, im a slow leveler).

I think I've only been able to get this far because of catalysts, which cause problems for a lot of my opponents (Armor rating and blockbusted are a pain). Thing is too is that I usually face off against gold 1 and diamond 4's who have the same or a few more diamonds than me, but I somehow use my available fighters to their maximum potential and usually win. Am I super lucky?

 

[Dusty00]

I have been having the opposite of the problem from what I've seen. I'm in diamond 3 (which is apparently 1970+) and only have 13 diamonds in my base (all lvl 50 and below, im a slow leveler).

I think I've only been able to get this far because of catalysts, which cause problems for a lot of my opponents (Armor rating and blockbusted are a pain). Thing is too is that I usually face off against gold 1 and diamond 4's who have the same or a few more diamonds than me, but I somehow use my available fighters to their maximum potential and usually win. Am I super lucky?

I don’t think it’s luck. You just fall in the category of players who benefit from the new matchmaking system where catalysts collection isn’t factored in. If anything, I think you are approaching rift in a more strategic way than other players with a better collection but aren’t using all their resources (moves, Catalysts) to the fullest potential. Keep it up because we need more players like you higher up on the ladder