Characters Buffing Weaker Kits: Ms. Fortune and Painwheel

[Kheul]

In terms of the functionality of character moves, there is a significant power disparity in the game. This disparity can somewhat be artificially covered by giving weaker characters stronger signature abilities, but I feel like resolving this disparity at a fundamental level is the best course of action. I’ll be suggesting a few balance adjustments for some characters struggling due to this (Ms. Fortune, Painwheel, Double, Cerebella).

Ms. Fortune
It is true that she can be a beast in the right hands but she still lacks utility and doesn't really have a role in a team. I don't really mind a character not having a specific role, but she definitely needs more utility. With this changes I'm trying to make her more reliable by giving her some utility and improve her current playstyle.

ICON​	NAME​	OLD​	NEW​
​	CAT SCRATCH​	Each HIT has a 15/25/35% chance to inflict DEATH MARK for 10 seconds, or ARMOR BREAK for 10 seconds if the attack is BLOCKED.	Each HIT has a 50/75/100% chance to TRANSFER 1 debuff as BLEED.
​	EL GATO​	25/35/50% chance on CRITICAL HIT to inflict STUN for 4 seconds.	On CRITICAL hit gain ENRAGE for 10/12/15 seconds.
​	HIT PAWS​	25/35/50% chance on HIT inflict BLEED for 5 seconds.	25/35/50% chance on HIT inflict BLEED for 10 seconds.
​	FERAL EDGE​	Deals additional damage equal to 5/7/10% of the opponent's MAX HEALTH if the final hit is a CRITICAL HIT.​ ​	Inflicts PERMANENT DEATH MARK and deals additional damage equal to 5/7/10% of the opponent's MAX HEALTH if the final hit is a CRITICAL HIT.
​	FIFTH OF DISMEMBER​	Deals 50/75/100% bonus damage if the enemy is below 50% HEALTH. Sacrifices 25% of your remaining HEALTH.	Deals 10/15/20% bonus damage for each BUFF and DEBUFF stack on the enemy. Sacrifices 25% of your remaining HEALTH to refund 25% METER.

Painwheel

I think she has the weakest kit overall. Her moves do nothing special and her combo potential is almost non-existent. I'm giving her more offensive power without changing her style too much.

ICON​	NAME​	OLD​	NEW​
​	MARQUEE ABILITY: GRUDGE​	When the opponent lands a CRITICAL HIT, gain ENRAGE for 10/20 seconds and ARMOR for 5 seconds	10/20% of the damage dealt is UNHEALABLE DAMAGE.
​	CRUEL LILY​	15/25% chance on HIT to inflict BLEED for 2/4 seconds.	20/30/40% chance on HIT to extend debuff durations for 3 seconds. (Except STUN, FATIGUE and DOOM)
​	PINION DASH​	No Effects.	5/10/15% of the damage dealt is regained as HEALTH. Inflicts DISABLE TAG INS for 5/7/10 seconds if BLOCKED.
​	VIOLET GRUDGE​	5/10% chance on HIT to inflict HEAVY BLEED for 5/10 seconds.	50/75/100% chance on BLOCKED HIT to inflict GUARD BREAK for 10 5 seconds. If opponent GUARD is broken, inflict HEAVY BLEED for 10 seconds.
​	HATRED INSTALL​	25/50/100% chance on HIT to gain ENRAGE for 10 seconds.	On USE converts your debuffs to ENRAGE for 10/12/15 seconds.
(REACHED IMAGE LIMIT)​	DEATH CRAWL​	5/10% chance on HIT to inflict BLEED for 3/6 seconds.	10/20% chance on HIT to inflict BLEED for 4/8 seconds.
(REACHED IMAGE LIMIT)​	FRACTURE REAPER​	15/20/25% chance on HIT to inflict DEATH MARK for 10 seconds.	20/35/50% chance on HIT to inflict DEATH MARK AND HEAL BLOCK for 10 seconds.
(REACHED IMAGE LIMIT)​	BUER THRESHER​	15/25% chance on HIT to inflict ARMOR BREAK for 5/10 seconds.	Inflicts ARMOR BREAK for 10 seconds. For every BROKEN ARMOR deal an additional 3/4/5% of the opponent's MAX HEALTH.

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(Due to technical limitations on attachable image limit, I will need to make a different post about DOUBLE and CEREBELLA sometime in the future.)

I'm very open to feedbacks. What do you guys think of these changes? If you have different ideas feel free to comment down below, let's brainstorm!

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Updates:
- Implemented Dusty00's idea on the Pinion Dash
- Reduced Guard Break duration on Violet Grudge

 

[Dusty00]

Overall great suggestions and well thought out. These changes would make both characters more leveled with the newer characters added. Really like the transfer debuff and convert debuff to enrage ideas.

My only concern is that Piñon Dash already does a lot of dmg and it’ll likely fully heal PW. Thematically I don’t think PW should have access to heal as the berserker.

 

[Kheul]

Overall great suggestions and well thought out. These changes would make both characters more leveled with the newer characters added. Really like the transfer debuff and convert debuff to enrage ideas.

My only concern is that Piñon Dash already does a lot of dmg and it’ll likely fully heal PW. Thematically I don’t think PW should have access to heal as the berserker.

Thank you for the feedback and I am glad that you liked them.

Yeah, you are right it would be an instant refill. That does sound broken for a special move. Maybe it needs no changes at all as it hits quite hard, but I think giving a move "No effects." is just taking the easy way out and it doesn't really motivate you to level it up except for the stats.

After pondering about it for a while, I could think of one other option that doesn't have as much impact as current iteration but still has its niche.

"Inflicts DISABLE SPECIALS for 4/8/12 seconds if BLOCKED." [It still inflicts DISABLE SPECIALS if it hits through GUARD BREAK which would be a nice interaction with GUARD BREAK]

If you can think of something more suitable please do share.

 

[Dusty00]

How about disable tagout 5/7/10s on block instead? It’ll help PW finish the kill.

 

[Aoskull]

In terms of the functionality of character moves, there is a significant power disparity in the game. This disparity can somewhat be artificially covered by giving weaker characters stronger signature abilities, but I feel like resolving this disparity at a fundamental level is the best course of action. I’ll be suggesting a few balance adjustments for some characters struggling due to this (Ms. Fortune, Painwheel, Double, Cerebella).

Ms. Fortune
It is true that she can be a beast in the right hands but she still lacks utility and doesn't really have a role in a team. I don't really mind a character not having a specific role, but she definitely needs more utility. With this changes I'm trying to make her more reliable by giving her some utility and improve her current playstyle.

ICON​	NAME​	OLD​	NEW​
View attachment 26295​	CAT SCRATCH​	Each HIT has a 15/25/35% chance to inflict DEATH MARK for 10 seconds, or ARMOR BREAK for 10 seconds if the attack is BLOCKED.	Each HIT has a 50/75/100% chance to TRANSFER 1 debuff as BLEED.
View attachment 26296​	EL GATO​	25/35/50% chance on CRITICAL HIT to inflict STUN for 4 seconds.	On CRITICAL hit gain ENRAGE for 10/12/15 seconds.
View attachment 26298​	HIT PAWS​	25/35/50% chance on HIT inflict BLEED for 5 seconds.	25/35/50% chance on HIT inflict BLEED for 10 seconds.
View attachment 26297​	FERAL EDGE​	Deals additional damage equal to 5/7/10% of the opponent's MAX HEALTH if the final hit is a CRITICAL HIT.​ ​	Inflicts PERMANENT DEATH MARK and deals additional damage equal to 5/7/10% of the opponent's MAX HEALTH if the final hit is a CRITICAL HIT.
View attachment 26299​	FIFTH OF DISMEMBER​	Deals 50/75/100% bonus damage if the enemy is below 50% HEALTH. Sacrifices 25% of your remaining HEALTH.	Deals 10/15/20% bonus damage for each BUFF and DEBUFF stack on the enemy. Sacrifices 25% of your remaining HEALTH to refund 25% METER.

Painwheel

I think she has the weakest kit overall. Her moves do nothing special and her combo potential is almost non-existent. I'm giving her more offensive power without changing her style too much.

ICON​	NAME​	OLD​	NEW​
View attachment 26300​	MARQUEE ABILITY: GRUDGE​	When the opponent lands a CRITICAL HIT, gain ENRAGE for 10/20 seconds and ARMOR for 5 seconds	10/20% of the damage dealt is UNHEALABLE DAMAGE.
View attachment 26301​	CRUEL LILY​	15/25% chance on HIT to inflict BLEED for 2/4 seconds.	20/30/40% chance on HIT to extend debuff durations for 3 seconds. (Except STUN, FATIGUE and DOOM)
View attachment 26302​	PINION DASH​	No Effects.	5/10/15% of the damage dealt is regained as HEALTH. Inflicts DISABLE SPECIALS for 4/8/12 seconds if BLOCKED.
View attachment 26303​	VIOLET GRUDGE​	5/10% chance on HIT to inflict HEAVY BLEED for 5/10 seconds.	50/75/100% chance on BLOCKED HIT to inflict GUARD BREAK for 10 seconds. If opponent GUARD is broken, inflict HEAVY BLEED for 10 seconds.
View attachment 26304​	HATRED INSTALL​	25/50/100% chance on HIT to gain ENRAGE for 10 seconds.	On USE converts your debuffs to ENRAGE for 10/12/15 seconds.
(REACHED IMAGE LIMIT)​	DEATH CRAWL​	5/10% chance on HIT to inflict BLEED for 3/6 seconds.	10/20% chance on HIT to inflict BLEED for 4/8 seconds.
(REACHED IMAGE LIMIT)​	FRACTURE REAPER​	15/20/25% chance on HIT to inflict DEATH MARK for 10 seconds.	20/35/50% chance on HIT to inflict DEATH MARK AND HEAL BLOCK for 10 seconds.
(REACHED IMAGE LIMIT)​	BUER THRESHER​	15/25% chance on HIT to inflict ARMOR BREAK for 5/10 seconds.	Inflicts ARMOR BREAK for 10 seconds. For every BROKEN ARMOR deal an additional 3/4/5% of the opponent's MAX HEALTH.

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(Due to technical limitations on attachable image limit, I will need to make a different post about DOUBLE and CEREBELLA sometime in the future.)

I'm very open to feedbacks. What do you guys think of these changes? If you have different ideas feel free to comment down below, let's brainstorm!

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Nice suggestion you got there, man.
Here are some feedbacks from me!

Ms.Fortune
- El Gato doesn’t need adjustment imo.It's already very powerful in a crit-focused build.

- Feral Edge’s perma death mark seems to be OP. The value of Perfect Dark and Nerv will surely plummet. 10 sec is enough.

- What about tapping Hit Paws while in head off Scratch Fever allowing you to cancel the final hit and makes it a continued combo? A perfect reproduction of the original imo.

Painwheel
- Pinion Dash doesn’t need adjustment imo. Moves with no effects tend to be set to high performance. (Except Flesh Step lol)

- It would be good to make Violet Grudge usable in the air. (It's originally an aerial move) Maybe 50% chance is enough for guard break.

- It would be good to make Cruel Lily cancelable by BB. Debuff duration increase by special move seems to be OP imo, change it to “convert 1 buff into guard break for 5/7/10 sec” would be good.

- I really like Install’s rework. This will surely increase utilization. But all debuff is a bit OP, change it to “1/2/3 debuff” would be good to balance it out.

- NOOOO! Please don’t adjust Grudge… This marquee has helped me many times with my offense. I have a lot of attachment to this ability, so I'm a little sad to see it change. How about making the armor 15 seconds? This will give her a powerful ability in offense that is similar but different from Dahlia.

 

[Kheul]

How about disable tagout 5/7/10s on block instead? It’ll help PW finish the kill.

Cool idea, sounds good to me.

Nice suggestion you got there, man.
Here are some feedbacks from me!

Thank you, I appreciate the feedback.

Ms.Fortune
- El Gato doesn’t need adjustment imo.It's already very powerful in a crit-focused build.

- Feral Edge’s perma death mark seems to be OP. The value of Perfect Dark and Nerv will surely plummet. 10 sec is enough.

- What about tapping Hit Paws while in head off Scratch Fever allowing you to cancel the final hit and makes it a continued combo? A perfect reproduction of the original imo.

- Damage-wise El Gato is pretty good but STUN doesn't necessarily help a high-tempo character like Ms.Fortune. She doesn't give a breather to the opponent with headless anyways, so STUN (not even a guaranteed one on a crit condition) doesn't really do much except crippling herself with not bringing her blockbusters and special cooldowns back in time due to how STUN is implemented to not loop enemies with it. She has a better tool to loop anyways, headless.

- Purrfect Dark's Death Mark is just timeless, not permanent. As for Raw Nerv, she would still be the better choice to solely inflict Perma Death Mark anyways, considering how easy her condition is. One of the reasons I wanted to rework Ms. Fortune was the fact that how overused death mark was on her kit. But Death Mark can't even stack, so what is the point and I thought giving her a Perma Death Mark on her BB2's last hit with a crit condition is acceptable, considering how easy Raw Nerv can apply it.

- Yeah, that would definitely be nice.

Painwheel
- Pinion Dash doesn’t need adjustment imo. Moves with no effects tend to be set to high performance. (Except Flesh Step lol)

- It would be good to make Violet Grudge usable in the air. (It's originally an aerial move) Maybe 50% chance is enough for guard break.

- It would be good to make Cruel Lily cancelable by BB. Debuff duration increase by special move seems to be OP imo, change it to “convert 1 buff into guard break for 5/7/10 sec” would be good.

- I really like Install’s rework. This will surely increase utilization. But all debuff is a bit OP, change it to “1/2/3 debuff” would be good to balance it out.

- NOOOO! Please don’t adjust Grudge… This marquee has helped me many times with my offense. I have a lot of attachment to this ability, so I'm a little sad to see it change. How about making the armor 15 seconds? This will give her a powerful ability in offense that is similar but different from Dahlia.

- From my viewpoint, I find moves with no effects boring. This is just a matter of choice tbh. It is true that my first iteration was too powerful for such a hard hitting skill, but I think Dusty00's idea is highly applicable.

- Yeah considering how rarely FLIGHT RISK is used sounds like a good idea to make Violet Grudge usable in air. I wanted to implement Violet Grudge as an "breach" type of move where she rips through the opponent's guard and start her combo. As I was going to implement it as a combo starter, it would be ok to nerf GUARD BREAK duration to just 5 seconds. This would mean it will need to have a hitstun for the last hit or have a shorter winddown period, but I'm not planning to get in the technical stuff.

- Yeah, cancellable by BB sounds good to me. Dunno if it would be op really. The closest thing we got is Psykid I think (not exactly the same but she came to my mind). There are some cases debuff extension/reset is really good. Against something like Splitting Image against whom you can't apply debuffs if you let her do her thing, but you can still extend or reset pre-existing debuffs. Against higher resistance enemies in case you have no accuracy, once you land a debuff you can try to extend it freely without accuracy check. Possibly against AUTOIMMUNE in rifts. Other than these, applying the debuff itself again would be superior anyways, as this isn't a fixed amout of debuff extension, you cannot reliably plan your gameplay around this. Even if you do, it is a nice niche at best.

- Glad you liked the idea. I don't agree it would be op tbh. You risk exposing yourself to DEBUFFS so you can convert them to ENRAGE. I don't think this would be a better alternative than IMMUNITY where you don't get debuffed at all. I think it can't even be better than DAHLIA's TEA SLIP. Even though she doesn't gain anything for removing debuffs, it is way easier to use than a BLOCKBUSTER due to many ways to hinder BLOCKBUSTER usage.

- Sorry but I can't wrap my head around it how do you use it offensively? Letting them hit you with a Trauma Center Valentine in the back? Or a Bruiser build with high defense against defenders who have no piercing and hope they will crit? I mean it could be fun playing her that way, but I still think it needs to change for a better defined and refined gameplay style.

 

[SvenZ]

I absolutely love the change to Hatred Install.

I honestly wish Buer Thresher applied Guard Break, instead of armor break. With the Guard Break also being applied on Blocked hits. Due to how slow it recovers on both Hit and Block, Death Crawl outshines in situations where you want to use a charge attack immediately after using the BB. With Buer Thresher it's a toss of the dime if you'll get punished or not. And given its cost, it should do more.

Fracture Reaper is an appreciated change, and may actually give me a reason to ever use it. Where the move suffers the most is with its bad frame data and damage. Those aspects desperately need to be adjusted as well.

Speaking of, Violet Grudge has similar issues. Even though animation wise it's absolutely the same as PWs Flight dash attack, if V Grudge is used while in Flight it will have comparatively higher startup frames due to slight elevation differences... The move will really benefit from improved start-up frames, both when landed and especially when in the air. Should also open up some combo routes

Overall I think these changes are pretty sound. I don't have much of a comment on the Ms Fortune changes, as I haven't played the character enough to have a strong opinion. As of right now, I only wish Feral Edge had better combo potential/frame data, as it feels like it whiffs too often after a single hit

 

[yixtu_qu]

- NOOOO! Please don’t adjust Grudge… This marquee has helped me many times with my offense. I have a lot of attachment to this ability, so I'm a little sad to see it change. How about making the armor 15 seconds? This will give her a powerful ability in offense that is similar but different from Dahlia.

I don't know about you, but I absolutely don't find any use in this marquee, especially use it offensively. On the contrary, I'm hoping that it will be buffed so that it can be used more easily for DD Painwheels