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Pointlessly Overpowered Abilities Take the Fun Out of This Game

Prmth456

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I've lost count of how many times I've explained this by now. After a certain point, yes, matches can and do become literally unwinnable. If they can OHKO you with BB3 and build it three times before you can kill them, there's truly nothing you can do about that.


Nope. I'm not interested in spending hundreds of hours making a number go up in the hopes that the game might eventually become fun after enough grinding. I have better things to do with my time.

And even if the problem does go away after hundreds of hours, is that really an excuse to leave the early game in such a bad state?

>Don't want to spend my time making numbers go up.
>Game might not be fun for me even after doing so, anyway.
>Have better things to do with my time.

If you don't want to grind, if you don't think it will turn out to be fun eventually, if you don't like the game style, mechanics, time investment requirement, or any other aspect, wth are you waiting for? Buy yourself a football and go play outside or whatever.

The early game is hard, yes, get over it. But let me tell you smt: getting maxed lvl 50s is not the end game. There is not a definitive end game.
Do you want to evolve/max each silver and bronze, do you want to evolve/max all parasouls and bellas, or who or whatever you decide to do, that will be your own end game! So it's doesn't get easier bc it's already over. Quite the contrary, it's hard but it's fun when it starts and it just gets better and better the more you play it. So get over it, bc there won't be an "Easy difficulty" for those who don't want to spend their oh so precious time grinding. Don't expect everyone to stop what they're doing just so they can start building ladders for you to reach the point which we all had to climb for.
 
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Shawesome

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So uh, I guess I'll add my two sense on the matter? I can agree that fighting characters like RE, AF, and Untouchable can be rather annoying. In fact, I always skip teams with Untouchable. However, I learned that you just need to play smart to beat them. For instance, to deal with RE it's best to use fighters who do high damage with low hits, Cerebella comes to mind here. And about the "after some time the fights become unwinnable" argument: as many others have stated, an AI team will show up eventually which is significantly weaker than player teams. Aeon in Gold, Venus in Silver...something in Bronze, I don't play it much. And as someone who has managed to beat those "unwinnable fights" despite having only recently gotten a high FS, I'll say this one last statement: a game with difficulty is more fun than a game you'll breeze through, so long as you don't quit.
 

Ryouhi

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So uh, I guess I'll add my two sense on the matter? I can agree that fighting characters like RE, AF, and Untouchable can be rather annoying. In fact, I always skip teams with Untouchable. However, I learned that you just need to play smart to beat them. For instance, to deal with RE it's best to use fighters who do high damage with low hits, Cerebella comes to mind here. And about the "after some time the fights become unwinnable" argument: as many others have stated, an AI team will show up eventually which is significantly weaker than player teams. Aeon in Gold, Venus in Silver...something in Bronze, I don't play it much. And as someone who has managed to beat those "unwinnable fights" despite having only recently gotten a high FS, I'll say this one last statement: a game with difficulty is more fun than a game you'll breeze through, so long as you don't quit.
That's a problem though, in my opinion at least.
Why do players with maxed out fighters get an easy way out with bot teams?

Shouldn't the game get the hardest once you're at the top and not easier?
I fell like the difficulty in PFs is kind of backwards due to this
 

Shawesome

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That's a problem though, in my opinion at least.
Why do players with maxed out fighters get an easy way out with bot teams?

Shouldn't the game get the hardest once you're at the top and not easier?
I fell like the difficulty in PFs is kind of backwards due to this
Well I believe those teams also show up after a high enough streak and/or multiplier. I'll double check this when I do the Silver PF, later.
Edit: I just realized that if you have trouble getting a streak because of these fighters it would be difficult to reach those teams. I'll try and think of some way to get around this.
 

Luke

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That's a problem though, in my opinion at least.
Why do players with maxed out fighters get an easy way out with bot teams?

Shouldn't the game get the hardest once you're at the top and not easier?
I fell like the difficulty in PFs is kind of backwards due to this
Games always gets easier once the player reached the very top. Its like a reward thing. Seniority previliage. You get a easy pass because you did all the work. Etc.
 
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Ryouhi

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The problem I see with blockable BB3s, which you many of you have suggested and that I've brought up before, is that if you're playing this game properly and playing defensively, then most matches will follow the same pattern of Block and Punish. The AI rarely lands attacks on you unless they're unblockable command grabs from Bella/Beowulf or a BB3. If you take away the unblockable aspect of BB3s then the AI loses a significant tool that helps it to even the playing field against players who play very defensively.

Perhaps it's because I used to play Injustice Mobile, but I'm used to unblockable super moves that deal insane amounts of damage that 9 times out of 10 will kill you or put you at critical health. While it may not exactly feel good or even fair, I really think unblockable BB3s are more good than they are bad. If they were blockable, a lot of them would deal no chip damage since many of them need to connect to deal the big chunk of the damage that they deal.

As far as being defeated by being outplayed vs stats, that's a part of the territory of fighting at an FS difference. It's true. Yes, certain matchups are impossible to win. But you can also manipulate matchmaking to your advantage, which you should be doing. As I've mentioned several times before, if you know that the opponent's team can be 2-2.5x your FS, pick your fighters wisely. You don't want to go into a match with 3 5k FS fighters because then your FS will be 15k and the opponent will be able to have 30k. Play one of those 5k fighters and 2 xp sponges. Matchmaking won't let your opponent have 30k FS. At most you'll fight one 10k fighter and 2.5k fighters. Not many players play teams like that, so it's more likely you'll run into a team of 3 5k fighters or 2 7k fighters and a throwaway. See what I'm getting at? No matter what point you are in the game, for early/mid/late game players manipulating matchmaking is going to be your best shot at finding winnable matches. There's no way that you can go into 10 16 streak fights and 10/10 fights have all 3 opponents as unwinnable matchups if you're also manipulating the matchmaking system.

I wouldn't say making them blockable would be the solution to the problem, because that would cause more problems than fix it, like you said.
Some while ago i spitballed some ideas what could be done, like giving BB3s actual drawbacks, since right now they don't really have any (highest damagae + unblockable), like using up all Blockbuster meters the user has filled, giving the user debuffs after using it, making only one BB3 equippable per team, etc... (just spitballing, not saying these are actually balanced), though people did say that would mess with fights at balanced FS too much, so maybe that isn't the best solution either.
I can't really come up with anything that wouldn't unbalance end game fights if i wanted to make them less deadly in 2x FS fights, other than perhaps making them do %HP-Damage instead of flat damage.
I just believe something should be done about them to make them feel less frustrating to deal with if the game already sets you at a disadvantage.

And i see what you're saying and you're right that taking weaker characters with you makes fights easier for your carry character, but seems a little out of place for the most "competetive" gamemmode we currently have.
It seems a little weird that the best strategy is leveling up your characters in Prize Fights when you should actually use your Best teams to score the most points, but that may just be me :p
 

missingno

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The problem I see with blockable BB3s, which you many of you have suggested and that I've brought up before, is that if you're playing this game properly and playing defensively, then most matches will follow the same pattern of Block and Punish. The AI rarely lands attacks on you unless they're unblockable command grabs from Bella/Beowulf or a BB3. If you take away the unblockable aspect of BB3s then the AI loses a significant tool that helps it to even the playing field against players who play very defensively.
So fix the neutral game then. I think just reducing the throw tech window would make a huge difference there, because then you've got real mixups to deal with on defense.

Games always gets easier once the player reached the very top. Its like a reward thing. Seniority previliage. You get a easy pass because you did all the work. Etc.
Always? Most games get harder, not easier. Like, that's been the norm since Space Invaders.
 

BrolaireOfAsstora

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So fix the neutral game then. I think just reducing the throw tech window would make a huge difference there, because then you've got real mixups to deal with on defense.


Always? Most games get harder, not easier. Like, that's been the norm since Space Invaders.
Just learn to react faster. Bella and Beo grabs don't really become much of an issue after you can see the startup and swipe up immediately.

Pokemon begs to differ. So does Metroid, and Mass Effect(the good ones) and any other game where you increase your skills. Skullgirls is no different. Thats why these guys with level 50 teams feels this dropoff, whereas you and (who are relatively mediocre) feel a much higher difficulty challenge.

Overall, I feel that the current state of prize fights is No Man's sky levels of broken, because you CAN win harder fights (DI Eliza is a godsend, you can pull off her bb3 4-5 times a match), yet there is a significant challenge in it that can frustrate those who don't enjoy a challenge. I just find it more rewarding when you complete it though. Perhaps a gentler difficulty curve or a buff to weaker fighters that can deal with "op characters" would make the game feel better?
 

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Just learn to react faster. Bella and Beo grabs don't really become much of an issue after you can see the startup and swipe up immediately.

Pokemon begs to differ. So does Metroid, and Mass Effect(the good ones) and any other game where you increase your skills. Skullgirls is no different. Thats why these guys with level 50 teams feels this dropoff, whereas you and (who are relatively mediocre) feel a much higher difficulty challenge.

Overall, I feel that the current state of prize fights is No Man's sky levels of broken, because you CAN win harder fights (DI Eliza is a godsend, you can pull off her bb3 4-5 times a match), yet there is a significant challenge in it that can frustrate those who don't enjoy a challenge. I just find it more rewarding when you complete it though. Perhaps a gentler difficulty curve or a buff to weaker fighters that can deal with "op characters" would make the game feel better?
Oh my, someone mentioned my favorite game series, Metroid. I can definitely vouch for those games on how they handle difficulty. Hell I played Fusion recently and it has to be the hardest game I've played in a while. You'd get an ability thinking you might have an advantage against your enemies, and then the next sector could easily wipe the floor with you.
 

BrolaireOfAsstora

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Oh my, someone mentioned my favorite game series, Metroid. I can definitely vouch for those games on how they handle difficulty. Hell I played Fusion recently and it has to be the hardest game I've played in a while. You'd get an ability thinking you might have an advantage against your enemies, and then the next sector could easily wipe the floor with you.
Really? I find it the opposite. Getting abilities makes the game easier as you go because youre more powerful, not less. The enemies get harder, yes, but you're better equipped to deal with them. Another game that functions like this is Legend of Zelda too. Both games rely on you upgrading your gear so you're not forced to take a Metroid dick up the butt every other room.
 

missingno

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Just learn to react faster. Bella and Beo grabs don't really become much of an issue after you can see the startup and swipe up immediately.
No no, I'm saying the opposite, make techs harder (like in the original game). The fact that it's so easy to tech everything on reaction is the problem.
 

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I think an FP adjustment would help. Currently top players just go against the same few characters (3-4 different) at max streak because they have the highest combined FP. Bringing characters like Filia Valentine and peacock's various pallets to 10.5k+ when maxed would help us to fight varied teams.
 

Ryouhi

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Here's a radical idea that I've suggested several times on discord but that's been shot down every single time.

Change the FS formula to also account for stats from move bonuses, and take other stats beyond simply HP and Atk into consideration.

Let's look at the positive effects this would have on the state of PFs:
  1. You get a more accurate depiction of a fighter's threat level
  2. Evolved fighters actually have a chance to show up in high level play
  3. There's a wider variety of total team FS
  4. Greater variety of FS lends to greater variety of opponent team compositions and lets you see teams from the rest of the player base
  5. Early/Mid game players would have more fair matchups
  6. Lower chance of running into a matchup where opponent can one shot you with a BB3
  7. Higher potential max team FS = greater potential XP gains = less tedious grind
  8. People who don't want to use Armed Forces, Harlequin, Wulfsbane, and Epic Sax actually can showcase their favorite fighters in PFs
Now let's look at the negatives:
  1. Uhh sorry Dev team, but idk how much programming it would take to make this change
  2. idk. Share your thoughts on more negatives?
Yeah, i've been wondering why they weren't being into account, considering your enenmy could suddenly have +50% Defense and attack on all their fighters while you don't have any good stats yet.

Would also be useful being able to look at an enemy fighters stats before choosing an enemy team or perhaps only after choosing it.
 

Prmth456

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Here's a radical idea that I've suggested several times on discord but that's been shot down every single time.

Change the FS formula to also account for stats from move bonuses, and take other stats beyond simply HP and Atk into consideration.

Let's look at the positive effects this would have on the state of PFs:
  1. You get a more accurate depiction of a fighter's threat level
  2. Evolved fighters actually have a chance to show up in high level play
  3. There's a wider variety of total team FS
  4. Greater variety of FS lends to greater variety of opponent team compositions and lets you see teams from the rest of the player base
  5. Early/Mid game players would have more fair matchups
  6. Lower chance of running into a matchup where opponent can one shot you with a BB3
  7. Higher potential max team FS = greater potential XP gains = less tedious grind
  8. People who don't want to use Armed Forces, Harlequin, Wulfsbane, and Epic Sax actually can showcase their favorite fighters in PFs
Now let's look at the negatives:
  1. Uhh sorry Dev team, but idk how much programming it would take to make this change
  2. idk. Share your thoughts on more negatives?

Finally this thread took an interesting and constructive path!
Idk how hard it would be to implement this on the coding end, but, man, how I wish moves could actually contribute to the overall FS.

As a negative, I'd say that doing so would take away all the mistery that entering a match with someone you don't know can have, since as it is right now, you never know what to expect before it actually starts. Given that defensive points are not a thing yet, I think it would be too early to consider this kind of change without first implementing defense first.

Also, there's kind of a stablished formula to calculate FS using ATK and HP, even though that's not absolutely precise. So I wonder how much this formula would have to change (and how) to start taking into account things like Resists of all sorts, Armor Break, Defense (which as it is right now, also doesn't contribute to overall FS with its own nodes), etc.
 

FreyRenoir

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The game can query current percentages to prize fight opponents to activate in fights, so the next step would be weighting those percentages in strength thus convert them into fighter score.

Now tell me how 10% bleed resist is superior to 5% element bonus
 
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BrolaireOfAsstora

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Here's a radical idea that I've suggested several times on discord but that's been shot down every single time.

Change the FS formula to also account for stats from move bonuses, and take other stats beyond simply HP and Atk into consideration.

Let's look at the positive effects this would have on the state of PFs:
  1. You get a more accurate depiction of a fighter's threat level
  2. Evolved fighters actually have a chance to show up in high level play
  3. There's a wider variety of total team FS
  4. Greater variety of FS lends to greater variety of opponent team compositions and lets you see teams from the rest of the player base
  5. Early/Mid game players would have more fair matchups
  6. Lower chance of running into a matchup where opponent can one shot you with a BB3
  7. Higher potential max team FS = greater potential XP gains = less tedious grind
  8. People who don't want to use Armed Forces, Harlequin, Wulfsbane, and Epic Sax actually can showcase their favorite fighters in PFs
Now let's look at the negatives:
  1. Uhh sorry Dev team, but idk how much programming it would take to make this change
  2. idk. Share your thoughts on more negatives?
I don't remember that being suggested once. Or maybe I wasn't there. Regardless, it's a good idea and only a fool would turn it down. Ultimately it's up to the devs though, but I hope they can release an update to make filia or Val usable.
 

ImaiKari

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And what about fighter abilities that affect the whole team? A team with peashooter will have all fighters buffed with her ability, will that have to raise their fighter score or not? They'll do more damage with projectiles, after all. And what about an even more basic one, Sheltered? She adds crit rate, but would that need to be implemented into the new version of the score being proposed? I would lean towards no, considering the rest of the character abilities probably could not be added simply into score (not stat upgrades team-wide.). But I could see an argument towards saying that abilities should be included into score. I think that a good idea might be adding a small amount of score based on whether the character ability nodes are purchased or not, generally.
 

Ryouhi

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And what about fighter abilities that affect the whole team? A team with peashooter will have all fighters buffed with her ability, will that have to raise their fighter score or not? They'll do more damage with projectiles, after all. And what about an even more basic one, Sheltered? She adds crit rate, but would that need to be implemented into the new version of the score being proposed? I would lean towards no, considering the rest of the character abilities probably could not be added simply into score (not stat upgrades team-wide.). But I could see an argument towards saying that abilities should be included into score. I think that a good idea might be adding a small amount of score based on whether the character ability nodes are purchased or not, generally.

Personally i'd say you'd get away without counting Passives, since you (should) know what buffs they add to the team.
BUt a 2000FS team can either be a piece of cake for you when they have only level 1 specials and blockbusters, but super hard if they suddenly have all of them at 10-15 with Defense and Attack maxed out. But these stats are (currently) hidden unlike Characters Passives.
 

ImaiKari

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BUt a 2000FS team can either be a piece of cake for you when they have only level 1 specials and blockbusters, but super hard if they suddenly have all of them at 10-15 with Defense and Attack maxed out. But these stats are (currently) hidden unlike Characters Passives.
Whether they have their abilities unlocked or not could also be a key determinant to their difficulty, though. As well as how much of them are unlocked. A character with a really nice passive would be fairly different with and without said passive. I think it'd make sense to give a small nod to the score when they have more of their passive unlocked.
 

bobtehnoob

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the reason why you cant really change the fs calculation right now is because a lot of things (exp gain and prize fight points in particular) scale off fs, both yours and your opponents

matchmaking prize fights becomes significantly harder once a modified fs gets included (though its always possible to have a modified fs in brackets next to the actual fs), and it just serves to put those who are ahead, more ahead.

another issue with it is how you actually calculate this modified fs, i did some calculations a while ago trying to find the optimal stats to get the maximum fs, and it was just stacking %atk. clearly this isnt true because everyone knows that 50% defense is the most important stat to have, but even with using ehp for the calculation, stacking attack is still the "best way" to optimize efs.

the system will have to take into account expected attack, effective hp, as well as resistances in a "fair" way as to not skew the system to favor certain builds just for the sake of minmaxing efs, which is over the top and unnecessary right now, as i said, because it only serves to put those ahead, more ahead.

taking into account global buffs also makes it a bit of a shitshow, considering that harlequin's passive is irrelevant if your dont use (a lot of) specials, but immensely powerful if you have, say, a 5 george peacock or a 5 mgr bella, and this variable fs system would also mean that fs will also be changing mid-fight, as you take out buff fighters, or even as you apply debuffs like armor break

in order to minimize the complications this brings, i think the current fs system is fine, albeit could use some tinkering (for instance i dont believe crit and defense nodes on the skill tree increase your fs)
 
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