1. [2018/06/22]
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Remove Prize Fight Golds from Relics (EDITED)

Discussion in 'Feedback & Suggestions' started by OozyGamer, Jul 23, 2018.

  1. OozyGamer

    OozyGamer Member

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    Around some time yesterday I made this post with a petition stating as to why they should remove Prize Fight Golds from relics. However, I did not provide any effective reasoning for it, and that's what this edit is for; to provide some effective reasoning as to why I feel the way I do about this.

    As you may know, you can obtain the following gold fighters from relics as well as top placements in prize fights:

    >Parasite Weave Filia
    >Primed Parasoul
    >Wulfsbane Beowulf
    >Untouchable Peacock
    >Raw Nerv Painwheel
    >Immoral Fiber Double
    >Poltergust Squigly
    >Silent Kill Valentine
    >Diva Intervention Eliza
    >Epic Sax Big Band
    >Harlequin Cerebella

    The most frustrating part about having these fighters available in relics is receiving them as duplicates. But not simply just that, but just given their value as fighters in general. Compared to other gold fighters, they aren't really rare or considerably valuable at all. You'll notice that almost every player from levels 35-60 have them, and even some more advanced players with an inventory completely STOCKED full of them:

    [​IMG]

    Getting these fighters out of relics can just be frustrating and I'm not the only one that thinks so. Several players have expressed their frustration in getting these relatively easy to obtain golds out of relics as brand new fighters after hearing they can be obtained through another method. Or as mere duplicates. Just check the Discord and it's evident.

    upload_2018-7-24_21-50-11.png

    upload_2018-7-24_21-50-38.png

    upload_2018-7-24_21-50-49.png

    And even just some comments from the petition I recently started:

    upload_2018-7-24_21-51-8.png upload_2018-7-24_21-51-19.png

    And I'm sure a lot of you will express similar feelings to mine and these responses in the replies below

    I feel as if removing them from relics would not only tone down some frustration for veteran players, but create some more diversity amongst the fighters as well and overall satisfaction. If these fighters were exclusive to Prize Fights, I'm sure it could increase their value slightly as well too, creating golds that exist in a competitive and skill based category of the game rather than just sheer luck. Although, it still wouldn't up their value entirely to put them in comparison with other relic golds.

    As far as the argument for these fighters being potential carries and a necessity for new players to rank up in Prize Fights goes, it's invalid for several reasons. The first reason being is that there are several other extremely good carry fighters that can be pulled from relics (or just valuable fighters with unique SAs):

    >Bio-Exorcist Squigly
    >Armed Forces Cerebella
    >Brain Freeze Cerebella
    >Private Dick Big Band
    >Buzzkill Painwheel
    >Ultraviolent Peacock
    >Rainbow Blight Double
    >Xenomorph Double

    And you don't need a relic gold fighter to carry you in gold PFs to get one of the Prize Fight fighters. I got my first Prize Fight gold (Epic Sax Big Band) by using a Gold Rerun Peacock and a Gold Bassline Big Band, the two fighters that are given to you at the start of the game but leveled to max. And that's something we're forgetting. You CAN upgrade Bronze and Silver fighters to Gold, making them just as strong as regular Gold Fighters. You don't need an Epic Sax Big Band or a Harlequin Cerebella to carry you in the Prize Fights, but you could do the same with a Gold Cold Stones Beowulf or a Gold Doublicious Double. Even then, I continued to use those fighters to get the other gold Prize Fight fighters until I had leveled them all up efficiently and there was no need for them. I got my first relic gold (Surgeon General Valentine) a longtime after I had already gotten all of the Prize Fight fighters.

    And even so, duplicates are still bound to occur if this change is enforced but that's okay. The thing is, there will still be more value behind them compared to getting a duplicate Prize Fight Gold out of a relic (ex. a duplicate Brain Freeze is more valuable than a duplicate Harlequin)

    So for those who agree with this change, I'll leave the link to the petition below, although I'm sure it isn't the only way to enforce this change into the game.

    https://www.ipetitions.com/petition/remove-prize-fight-golds-from-relics
     

    Attached Files:

    #1 OozyGamer, Jul 23, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2018
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  2. Psyche

    Psyche Moderator
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    Little PSA for anyone diving into the discussion and responding to multiple members in turn:
    [The following was written before @OozyGamer updated the original post with an explanation of his thoughts, and there was only a brief list and the petition link.]

    While I don't mean to stifle your cause and I'm all pro freedom of speech and opinions and such, don't you reckon it would be a great idea to give some sort of rationale for why you want this to happen? Some reasoning for what you envision? I mean I get what you would like to happen, but why and how would it ultimately fare in practice? Have you got any way to assure the developers that this is a good move to make, not only on the player satisfaction side but also in terms of finance and economics?

    Also, you appear to be creating an implicature that a petition is the only way to make HVS listen to your idea. This is not true. You can make a suggestion like everyone else and it will be considered like everyone else's. The only time I think a petition would be necessary is if you put the idea forward and Hidden Variable said "we don't see enough demand for it so we won't do it", but from what I can gather that's not the case. There's a high probability that your proposal is just not practicable and will not be introduced due to limitations, in which case a petition will not mean very much at all.

    Of course, if there's more of a backstory to this than I can glean from here then please point me to it because I'd consider supporting an idea as long as it's well thought out.
     
    #2 Psyche, Jul 23, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2018
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  3. OozyGamer

    OozyGamer Member

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    Sorry, I was in a hurry while posting this and I'll likely repost it with more reasoning possibly sometime tomorrow or later
     
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  4. That nub

    That nub Member

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    NO.

    i mean whats whats the point? it shouldnt be deleted because the New ish players has to compete with high level veterans for the gold. thus increasing the points needed for gold= harder farming = a sad nub :(
    And the Literal 5 second player cant get the "OP Red circus woman and ragey umbrella lady" to carry them through hard missions
    In conclusion. I disagree



    ps: i wouldve been more aggressive if it wasnt for the rules. no offense
     
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  5. DoctorAwesome

    DoctorAwesome New Member

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    I think he wants to create an atmosphere where you can only get those heroes if you run PF, perhaps as a way to make them seem more rare.
     
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  6. Kokonut

    Kokonut Active Member

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    This proposition's really only beneficial for late game players. That is, while I wouldn't be complaining if this were to happen, it would be pretty selfish of me to actively support this. I got Wulfbane through a relic when I wasn't strong enough to get him in pf and used him to get my other pf golds.
    Parasite, Wulfbane, Harelequin, Diva and Epic Sax are top of the top tier, and arguably the best character variants. It's doubly unfair for newbies when they're already at a disadvantage.
     
  7. OozyGamer

    OozyGamer Member

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    Either way, regardless, there are still OTHER Golds available in relics that new players can get that can carry them through Prize Fights later on. That's why I don't see the point in having them in both Prize Fights AND relics if it's just going to irritate veteran players more than please them (especially towards those trying to build their collection). Plus, I'm pretty sure any new player would be relatively upset later about the fact that they received a Gold character that could be obtained via Prize Fights in given time. Considering the ridiculous rates for a Gold character drop anyways.
     
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  8. PHPP

    PHPP Active Member

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    I agree with this. Sure it will make harder for new players to get some good variants like the ones @Kokonut said, but their chance of pulling a gold will remain the same plus they'll be more likely to pull other great ones like Bloodbath, Buzzkill and Bio-exorcist. Also, it's totally possible to get a gold fighter in pf without already having another one to carry you. During my first week playing I opened some premiere relics, got Red Velvet and Dreadlocks and as I searched through the forums a lot of people were saying they sucked, specially RV, so I didn't use both of them. I didn't open any other relics because I wanted to save for squigly (or any other upcoming character, it wasn't even announced yet) and so I had to manage pfs and story mode with my bronzes and silvers. Headstrong and Colds Stones carried me through both (they were silvers at the time) and once I managed to get Harlequin in her PF, it really started to get going for me. Why wouldn't any other player be able to do the same?

    I would be against it if the chance to get a gold were to be lower this way, but that's not the case. Please HVS, remove PF golds from relics.
     
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  9. Zuzuska

    Zuzuska Active Member

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    I signed the petition already. However, I do understand the worries that new players wont be able to pull amazing fighters such as Primed or Harlequin at the start. The issue is that the PF Fighters are constantly in rotation, and assumingly, they will all easily be obtained at any point in the future.

    Should PF fighters be removed, it would open up a larger opportunity for players to receive relic bound fighters such as Dreadlocks, Brain Freeze, Private Dick, Surgeon General, and etc. If you consider the fact that these fighters can ONLY be pulled from relics, it would be rational to want more of a chance to receive a fighter that is unobtainable any other way. Pulling a PF Fighter is pretty disheartening, because there was the same % chance of getting a character that was impossible to collect from simply grinding.

    This change could also make these Fighters Prize Fight Exclusives, signifying that you achieved 1-10% and earned the Fighter through hardship and effort. That sounds far more interesting than "I just pulled it out of a relic, and later on I can farm 5 more"

    Another thing I would want added would be a method to farm or ensure receiving a certain variant I desperately wanted, but was never lucky enough to get. I would happily trade 5 duplicate Raw Nervs that I earned over time for just 1 Buzzkill.
     
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  10. Inked

    Inked Well-Known Member

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    as much as i understand the frustration people get when trying to fill out your collection and getting a prize fight gold instead of that Buzzkill you want, remember that dupes still have a purpose that were given in the latest update. personally when i get the pf fighters from a relic, now i’m not as disappointed because i know they can be used.
    i’m not against this suggestion - i would be a very interesting change. it just doesnt seem like a big deal to me.
     
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  11. Kokonut

    Kokonut Active Member

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    What you guys said are all good reasons and like I said, I personally wouldn't mind this to happen.

    But the notion that new players are able to get good characters sounds true only until you actually sit down and think about it. To refer with Moist's tier (I know it's not the rule, just using it as a point of reference) and the general consensus with squigly, out of 33 golds, 10 are considered S. 6 are in pf. Only 4 are in relics. If this preposition were to happen, newbies' chance of getting an s drops from 10/33 to 4/23. It's a pretty big drop.

    And saying that 'I did it when I was a newbie, so can you' might be a bit of a stretch when the Pf cutline's gone up from 3 to 10 mil. I imagine it has become way more difficult for newcomers to achieve that 10%.

    Thing is, I'm steadfastly under the belief that a game that isn't fun/ too hard for newbies is a soon to be dead game. This is so much more true in mobile. I don't want this game to be one of those graveyards where you step in for the first time and all you see are people playing for months and years trying to intimidate you and all the new patches have absolutely nothing to do with you and all to do with older players getting inconcievably stronger.

    And what's so bad getting fodder from a relic? It takes at least 6 months to get fodder pf characters. That's eons by mobile game standards.

    Anyway, I'm not saying change should never ever occur. What I'm proposing is that it'll be better for it to happen way later, when all the new characters come out with their own pfs. And those pf characters should succ. Like Windswept or smth
    As in chances of s (by estimate) 10/42 and 7/28 after the change.

    Edit) I sound somewhat passive aggressive here and I swear I actually don't care that much about this..? lol
     
    #11 Kokonut, Jul 24, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2018
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  12. Peacockis2cool4u

    Peacockis2cool4u Active Member

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    I understand all of this, but why make a petition if this would only benefit a certain amount of players? I don’t mean to sound rude, but you were a “noobie” at some point and would your first days of playing the Prize Fights been better if you couldn’t get fighters you literally worked hard for? Prize Fights are designed for players new and old having a shot at a challenge and working hard to get that fighter.

    If we didn’t have those gold fighters from the Prize Fights rewards, that would ultimately destroy any motivation to even play the gold Prize Fights, leading developers to make less money for the benefit of everything, including Skullgirls mobile updates. Not to mention, you can use those fighters to help you get diamonds variants.

    It may seem annoying to claim the same gold fighter, but that’s why they added in the diamond evolution. For old players who have too many of one fighter like you.

    I’m not saying you are, but players these days (specifically the older ones) can be so ungrateful.
     
    #12 Peacockis2cool4u, Jul 24, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2018
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  13. Zuzuska

    Zuzuska Active Member

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    The bad thing about getting a fodder from a relic is just that, it's a fodder. A lot of people hope for some of the relic exclusives, such as AF or BF, and will pull from the Cerebella Relic. Only to receive a HQ that they already had, and if they didn't have it before, than they'd just get another one from PF when they're steadfast enough to reach top 1-10%. The point is that the fodders are obtainable by a farmable source, rather than RNG based luck. AF and BF are LOCKED behind relics and HQ competes with them constantly. Theonite is gradually becoming more infrequent and the chance to receive a gold in the first place is already unlikely. To finally build up enough Theo to do a 10+1 pull only to receive another HQ is not the best feeling. I've personally pulled at least 33 Bella relics to get an abundance of Big Tops and Gray Matters, and 1 extra Harlequin.
    "Moist's Complete Tier List" is quite outdated. It was created on Feb 3rd, before the MASSIVE PF update that consisted of High Streak modifiers.

    Bloodbath is certainly an S Tier, and many people would much rather have her than a 1st or even 2nd Diva Intervention. Good luck getting her within the competition of her relic against Red Velvet AND Diva.

    Parasite Weave is a great PF reward, but she requires investment, and is a dangerous investment at the moment. (Rework is inbound...) She can be gotten from the PF in the first place, so anyone can simply build up their team over time and fight it. You HAVE to pull for both Dreadlocks or Windswept, at the risk of getting Parasite instead.

    A ton of people would love UViolent instead of Untouchable, Untouchable is obtainable so it isn't too bad. But for those hoping for UV, good luck.

    IMO Immoral Fiber is not an A, I'd rate her a B or C because she has a redundant SA that only functions upon death. Rainbow Blight is definitely not an S either though.

    Buzzkill is notably better than Raw Nerv, but many will unfortunately pull Raw Nerv instead of Buzzkill and be frustrated.
    (Sidenote: Twisted Mettle, Rusty and Rage Appropriate are all considered B Rank. Rage Appropriate is DEFINITELY worse than Rusty or Twisted Mettle as of right now.)

    Primed is certainly a great PF reward. However, remember that she IS obtainable whenever her PF rolls around. You can wait for her. You can not just wait for Princess Pride or Regally. You have to risk pulling another Primed if you really want either of those others.

    Epic Sax's reliability of "S" rank could arguably be downgraded to A rank, due to the high health modifiers now existing. His damage isn't as substantial, and right now it's a Bleed debuff loving world.

    I was going to list off each character and their PF reward but it seems rather repetitive now that I've typed out 5/10 of them.

    TLDR: My point is that people could definitely work with the relic exclusive Fighters, there are plenty that are great, and some that are sub par. The same goes for some the PF fighters though. Bio Exorcist is absolutely amazing in comparison to Poltergust. You CANNOT get the relic exclusive fighters in any other way. PFs are constantly rotating, you can wait and receive your first HQ or Primed eventually. Also, Moist's tier lists desperately need updating.
     
    #13 Zuzuska, Jul 24, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2018
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  14. Zuzuska

    Zuzuska Active Member

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    I'd argue that if this change were to come into practice, it would benefit every player in the long run. New players that stay in the game will eventually become old players that are also frustrated with getting the same Raw Nerv from PW relics they saved up for, instead of their sought after Buzzkill. It would also definitely not "destroy any motivation to even play the gold Prize Fights". The motivation would most likely be even stronger, because there are great variants that would be unobtainable in any other way besides fighting for it. *plus the fact that it's a gold dupe that can push you towards diamond*

    Edit: Also this isn't about removing PF golds from the PF rewards. It's about removing them from the relics to reduce competition between Fighters that are farmable and Fighters that are unfarmable.
     
    #14 Zuzuska, Jul 24, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2018
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  15. PHPP

    PHPP Active Member

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    Sorry if I understood your comment wrong, but it seems you made a little confusion here... This is about removing PF gold fighters from the relics, not do some kind of rotation between all the gold variants so all of them can be the reward at some point.


    I wish I was already playing when it was 3 mil... When I got my first prize it was with ~6.5 mil, and tbh even though the top 10% cut got a little higher now I still have to play about the same amount, also I saw someone in game chat saying they got wulfsbane in the last beo pf with 7mil (idk if it is true, I did it with 9.7 mil). Maybe this is just my case but it appears we still have to play the same amount of battles, sure it will depend more on how high your streaks are but with some 3k silvers you can already go pretty far there, just gotta grind a little harder which is expected from someone new to the game if they want to get top 10%.

    Like I saw someone saying in another post, once you get the ball rowling, it ROLLS. It's impressive how true this is, after the first gold it just gets easier to reach top 10% as you go

    EDIT: another thing, we have to remember the game is growing, more players means more PF competition. It just natural that the cuts raise as this happens, just like the amount of effort new and old players will have to put in their grinding so they can get to top 10% faster
     
    #15 PHPP, Jul 24, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2018
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  16. Inked

    Inked Well-Known Member

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    i apologize in advance, but i have to agree with this. you can't always get what you want. i know this idea is specifically for making you able to get more of what you actually want, but i just don't believe this is the right way to that.

    and are the prize fight gold dupes you get from relics not the same? its like i said before. getting that dupe is one less prize fight you have to grind through, one less gold to get and in result you're closer to that diamond evolution.
     
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  17. Scorialimit

    Scorialimit Member

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    Yeah it's annoying to us late-end game players, but I'm pretty sure if I my first Epic Sax and Untouchable were Private Dick and That's All Folks (although this was before they were available in premiere, still), I'd have taken much longer to hit the point where I would farm PF for these golds.

    A lot of these are objectively the best variants of their character and it would be kind of unfair to only give them to the already top players. Parasite, Primed, Wulfsbane, Diva, Epic Sax, and HQ are all their best variants. (I can see arguments for BB over Diva past streak 35, but she's at worst top 2 and they're so close in power it's hard to say one is for sure.) Even of the remainders PG and SK are second and third best in class respectively (although SK might as well be second, seeing as most people will never get a Pyro-Technique). And UT sucks if you're good, but she's amazing if you're new. New players only benefit from losing Nerv and Fiber.

    This petition works under two assumptions:

    1) Every player will eventually get top 10%. This is false, and only becomes more false by making it PF golds PF exclusive. PFs are getting quite insane now. People are getting 7m and 11-30%. That might have been a close score, but still, it's much higher and seems to be increasing every PF. I'm not sure how long 10m will be safe honestly. Back when 3m was safe it was possible for anyone to get top 10% (I even did it once with no golds other than an Untouchable and evolved BMF), but the fact is that's slowly going to become a luxury. We take top 10% for granted cause we're used to it, but that's exactly who's getting these scores, the top 10%. Maybe the top 25% who can spend a ton of time and grind it out for these golds, but if we were to remove them from relics, I promise you scores will get higher.

    2) All golds are created close to equal, or at least better than their silver and bronze counterparts. This is somewhat true, but only because newbies don't have access to evolution. And to be honest, getting the wrong gold would kinda suck. Sure Dreadlocks works, but getting her over Parasite Weave would make the game much, MUCH slower and frankly, the longer it takes to complete the story and get through high level PF fights, the bigger the gap between 30% and 10% is gonna be growing more and more, especially if you make half of the best golds PF only. I'll admit that's the most extreme example and still true with this system, but at least you have a chance of getting the good Filia. But even Dragon Brawler over Wulfsbane is going to be a slower progression.

    Creating a rich get richer system is hard to avoid while rewarding late and end game players, but that's all the more reason not to lean into it. New players should at least feel like they have a chance to get the best stuff, even if it's a mediocre chance at best. Feeling like they'll never get their favorite top tier version of a character doesn't sound like it's going to keep as many players around, and any game needs newcomers consistently coming in to survive.
     
  18. Peacockis2cool4u

    Peacockis2cool4u Active Member

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    I wasn’t confused. I just stated that it wouldn’t be fair if players didn’t get the same experience as older players. That just wouldn’t be fair. Prize Fights are only going to get harder, and older players NEED any duplicate fighter they can get for that diamond. All I’m saying is that, there should be no need for a petition for something that will only benefit certain players. A moderator already said they didn’t like the idea for this reason as well.
     
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  19. Zuzuska

    Zuzuska Active Member

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    I'm not sure why there has to be a blanket statement about "ungrateful older players." It isn't ungratefulness. Players wouldn't be making suggestions, or creating threads if we didn't enjoy the game and want to see it grow in a positive way. Although, a petition was probably not the best mode of suggestion.

    Scoria's reply has convinced me that removing PF golds from relics ENTIRELY is most likely not the solution to roll with. But maybe there could be a seperate Relic designated for non-PF golds? That would at least ensure that those who have most of the PF golds won't feel shafted in receiving the same HQuin or RNerv. Debatable though.

    I believe that there should be a way to build up to a variant you really want, without having to put all of your faith and theo into a lottery machine.
     
  20. Peacockis2cool4u

    Peacockis2cool4u Active Member

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    (Sorry if I sound rude, I’m not trying to be) I’m not sure what you’re saying. I’m confused if you’re agreeing with Oozy, or if you misinterpreted my comment. I reread the comment I made, and if you’re saying “I just don’t believe this is the right way to that” because you might’ve thought my quote of “if you couldn’t get the fighters you literally worked hard for” meant that they SHOULD add new golds to the Prize Fights to change things up for older players, I didn’t mean it like that at all. I meant it as in working hard for those Prize Fight golds feels amazing when you’ve earned it. However, PFs aren’t as easy as they were, so completely removing them from relics would give higher players an advantage, making the game unfair for newer players, when (previously new but now old players) didn’t have to deal with the removal of those fighters. That’s what I meant with my comment and that’s why I think a petition is unnecessary. I like games to be fair for old and new players alike. Removing fighters from relics would make things harder for newer players, potentially making them game “too hard to play.” Again, my apologies if I sounded rude!
     

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